<funkytwig>
purple_apple, quick question. I have a datamase class whitch could easily be argued is not part of Puddle, seems wrong to put it in lib/puddle.
<purple_apple>
lib/datamase.rb then
<funkytwig>
purple_apple, basicaly its very generic mysql access stuff
<funkytwig>
cool, thought that may be it;)
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<elomatreb>
funkytwig: If it's coupled to your project you should definitely put it in the subfolder, but you don't have to put it into the module (but there are few good reasons why you wouldn't)
<elomatreb>
If you put it in the top-level lib directory, your file will collide with e.g. a gem called "datamase"
<elomatreb>
(`require "gemname"` just searches the all the lib dirs of all installed gems for a file named "gemname.rb")
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<funkytwig>
Can I have a module called the same as the class, its the master class that everything inherits from, is this a good idea?
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<hanmac>
funkytwig: "#!/usr/bin/env ruby" is better for shebang
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<funkytwig>
cool, thanks, BTW its been a long time since I did ruby before. I found a oriely ruby cookboook from 2016 and a The Pragmatic Programmers : Programming Ruby roughly as old. Are they still relevent?
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<funkytwig>
I have a load of scripts that all create the same methods so I put them in a setup script and did a load but it seems the local varables setup in the load are not passed back.
<funkytwig>
c/methods/class instances/
<matthewd>
funkytwig: Yeah, local variables are local to the block of code they're defined in -- normally a method, but in this case, a file
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<funkytwig>
matthewd, thinking maybe constant or global. Is the only deference, with constance you cant change the value?
<funkytwig>
matthewd, its two varables. one is debug, whitch having it as a CONSTANT makes sence. The other venue_code, which is the music venue and is not changed forthe script (and everything it calls)
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<matthewd>
It's mostly a conceptual distinction (technically you can change constants too, though you generally shouldn't)
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<funkytwig>
matthewd, OK, just realised I am creating class instances in setup.rb so that wont work, guess I need to have the 4 lines that create them in eatch script
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<jonh>
moo'nin
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<bitflipper>
has anyone used http://api.rubyonrails.org/classes/Module/Concerning.html yet and found it to be a worthwhile replacement for even just: include Module.new { }. i really don't get that library. seems like a total effort in nonsense.
<bitflipper>
::Concern has a nicer API for some things, but Concerning. taking the idea too far.
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<bitflipper>
am i missing the use case?
<matthewd>
bitflipper: That's pretty much exactly what it does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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<Papierkorb>
the ideal way to build god objects, while not calling them like that
<matthewd>
The only other thing it does is give the module a name, which can make backtraces etc slightly better
<Papierkorb>
(The previous statement may contain traces of sarcasm.)
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<bitflipper>
yeah. i'm not sure whether or not even module Foo; end; include Foo is just as good, but then i guess 'Foo' is not a Concern. which is a problem it's also solving, right?
<bitflipper>
concerning :Foo do; end, then everything in Foo is now a Concern module
<matthewd>
True, it also saves you an `extend Concern`
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<matthewd>
No, then Foo is now a Concern module -- it doesn't do anything to things inside it
<bitflipper>
in the example:
<bitflipper>
concerning :EventTracking do
<bitflipper>
included do
<bitflipper>
isn't included from 'Concern'?
<matthewd>
Yes
<bitflipper>
ah right yeah okay
<bitflipper>
that's probably it's most feature
<matthewd>
That is the same as `module EventTracking; extend AS::Concern; included do; ..; end; end; include EventTracking`
<bitflipper>
most useful feature*
<matthewd>
But as per the description in the API docs, it's considered most likely to be a replacement for `### Event Tracking`
<bitflipper>
right yeah. to group methods logically, in one bigger module?
<matthewd>
Which is why it's nominally useful, even though it'd only be 3-4 lines to do manually: by being slightly more ergonomic, one is more likely to reach for it instead of just using comments
<bitflipper>
yeah
<matthewd>
Yeah. (Or straight in a god class, as Papierkorb said.)
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<bitflipper>
yeah it seems alright
<bitflipper>
def not nonsense anyway
<matthewd>
So yeah, it's not high value.. but it's non-zero value, and very low cost
<bitflipper>
it makes documentation hard tho -_-
<bitflipper>
a doc tool has to know 'concerning :Foo' defines a module of Foo, which extends itself with AS::Concern, and then includes itself into the module calling 'concerning', in order to document stuff properly and accurately.
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<bitflipper>
which is diffilcult
<bitflipper>
but such is meta programming i guess
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<matthewd>
Yeah.. I believe teaching yard that would be pretty easy, but not sure about rdoc
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<bitflipper>
yeah. yard is only the doc tool i know that has any potential to understand such complexity.
<bitflipper>
but i still can't write a solution
<bitflipper>
as of now
<matthewd>
We don't actually use it anywhere in rails/rails 😅
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<bitflipper>
yeah. i think it's prob inevitable it becomes more popular. i mean it's leaps and bounds ahead of rdoc but w/e...
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<matthewd>
I mean we don't use `concerning`.. but yeah, we don't use yard either
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<bitflipper>
right. true. 'concerning' is a particular use-case yard would be good at solving, but not sure how many people are interested in taking the effort of documenting meta stuff. it does provide pretty good facilitates for doing so though. i just don't like rdoc from start to finish. if its templates were better i probably wouldn't care about the lack of doc tool features.
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<matthewd>
I do like yard's seemingly deeper understanding of the code, but at least for Rails, the @foo tags are too unpopular
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<bitflipper>
yea. too java-docy maybe, but really don't see any other way to document the complexities of ruby at runtime.
<bitflipper>
i don't think it makes much sense for a web language like ruby to produce docs that don't utilise browser tech to make reading and searching text easier. u could probably use bootstrap and make it look nicer.
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<matthewd>
Ruby isn't a web language... and ruby-doc.org's template was custom developed for that (unofficial, 3rd party) site, I believe
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<bitflipper>
Ruby isn't a web language? then i think only our understanding of 'web language' differs. it's used primarily by web developers.
<bitflipper>
unofficial or not, it ranks at the top of all SEO results, and the only alternative i know of is rubydoc.info (yard).
<bitflipper>
i'm super doubtful that the stock rdoc template isnt garbage too
<darix>
bitflipper: it isnt. there is plenty of other stuff in ruby. i think your perspective might be biased.
<matthewd>
We're disagreeing about whether it's primarily used by web developers
<bitflipper>
in the professional space, i think so
<bitflipper>
most people who work with ruby do so through rails
<bitflipper>
@darix then link me. i'm happy to be wrong
<matthewd>
How are we supposed to prove that negative? :/
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<bitflipper>
sorry, i misunderstood
<havenwood>
bitflipper: Ruby is not a web language.
<bitflipper>
i thought he was referring to rdoc
<havenwood>
bitflipper: You're mistaken.
<bitflipper>
it's primary use case is the web. majority employment with ruby is offered via Rails.
<bitflipper>
the other professional case is Chef or sysadmin, but i think that's less so
<havenwood>
bitflipper: You're so wrong.
<havenwood>
bitflipper: It's unfortunate you're only aware of those two parts of the ecosystem.
<matthewd>
Ah, okay. Yeah, I don't actually remember what the default template looks like (the Rails API doc uses a custom template too), but I imagine it's measurably less shiny than it could be.
<bitflipper>
i'm not only aware of them.
<bitflipper>
but i'm aware of the professional space around ruby
<bitflipper>
it's focused around rails, and the web
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: Ruby is used widely in the automotive industry in Japan. It's been used in aerospace in the US recently to model jet fighter hardware and software. It's used in telephony. It's used in supercomputing (even matz was shocked by this). Etc, etc.
<bitflipper>
yeah. sure. i'm not saying its exclusive to the web. i'm saying it's predominately a web-focused language when applied to the professional space.
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<matthewd>
In Japan, Rails is considered fairly niche
<bitflipper>
could be. my perspective is western-oriented.
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: There are actual web languages. They don't have expansive standard libraries that do non-web things. Ruby is not one of these web languages. It's a general purpose language.
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<bitflipper>
sure, i agree that it is general purpose and that its scope is not limited to the Ruby. in practical application tho, most people employed using Ruby (in USA/Europe/West) are doing so via Rails or web tech. Look at the job boards, 95% of everything is Rails.
<bitflipper>
limited to Web*
<bitflipper>
which comes back to the original point. most ruby programmers are familiar with web tech at the very least.
<havenwood>
I guess about half the work I've done in Ruby was web-related. And of the web-related about half was rails.
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<jonh>
i think most people have to be familiar with web tech these days
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<darix>
bitflipper: e.g. openSUSE's config tool yast is ruby
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<bitflipper>
sure, and there's metasploit, and many other open source applications written in Ruby that aren't targeted at the web. i still think if you want to work with Ruby, you will do so through Rails, for majority of cases.
<matthewd>
Either way, apparently no-one has found the current state of the various rdoc templates unpleasant enough to PR improvements. They're all open source.
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<bitflipper>
but who knows. it may change. at some level rubymotion is still ruby. mruby might open a whole new space.
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: I'm always surprised how many shops are hiring folk for Ruby tooling. Internal command line apps. Devops. Etc.
<bitflipper>
sure @matthewd, but i think it would be time better spent to do so in yard.
<havenwood>
At least in California.
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: A lot of folk around here have a bunch of internal tools in Ruby.
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<matthewd>
I think it's pretty safe to say that yard's not going to become the default documentation system anytime soon (for various reasons)
<bitflipper>
sure, i hope it only continues and takes up a bigger share of the market. atm my impression is most things are rails-oriented, and if you want something else, you gotta look a little bit.
<havenwood>
bitflipper: On the other hand there is plenty of non-Rails work. I worked in Ruby for four years before learning Rails.
<havenwood>
I never had any trouble finding work.
<matthewd>
It's worth noting you're in the Ruby-not-Rails IRC channel: Rails-specific topics are chased to #RubyOnRails instead
<bitflipper>
right. these days there's better options for packaging & distributing ruby "apps", too. but i still think your case is an exception, not the rule.
<bitflipper>
i cant join there
<matthewd>
For that matter, RubyConf is similarly NotRailsConf
<havenwood>
?rails
<ruby[bot]>
Please join #RubyOnRails for Rails questions. You need to be identified with NickServ, see /msg NickServ HELP
<bitflipper>
not worth it
<havenwood>
Yeah, RubyConf's focus is very not Rails. RailsConf on the other hand...!
<havenwood>
I'd love to go to a RailsConf one of these days.
<havenwood>
RubyConf this year in New Orleans!! Tickets aren't sold out yet.
<bitflipper>
What happens to Ruby when Rails dies?
<bitflipper>
But opinions codified in Rails are falling out of favor. We're not writing apps that do heavy server-side rendering. Our apps have complex domain logic that grates against "The Rails Way."
<bitflipper>
Ruby rode the Rails rocketship to worldwide renown. While a handful of us were writing Ruby code before Rails came along, most of us owe Rails a debt of gratitude for taking Ruby mainstream, allowing us to make a living writing code in a language we love.
<bitflipper>
basically this. i'm not alone at all in the opinion i have.
<darix>
havenwood: personally everything that is more than a for loop here .. then my shell scripts get ruby
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: Yeah, you can find "Is X dead?" talks for every language that's more than a few years old. C and Java included.
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<bitflipper>
not the focus of my point
<matthewd>
bitflipper: No-one's claiming Rails isn't a major part of what made Ruby mainstream. Getting from there to "is a web language", however, is quite the leap.
<bitflipper>
Ruby rode the Rails rocketship to worldwide renown. While a handful of us were writing Ruby code before Rails came along, most of us owe Rails a debt of gratitude for taking Ruby mainstream, allowing us to make a living writing code in a language we love.
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<bitflipper>
matthewd, in the professional space, i believe it mostly is. i'm not saying it is limited to that.
<havenwood>
bitflipper: What language isn't mostly web in the professional space? Fortran?
<bitflipper>
C, C++, Objective-C, .. should i go on?
<darix>
golang!
<darix>
havenwood: btw: by the usage rate it is probably php then java ;)
<havenwood>
bitflipper: You could just say "Ruby is not a system language" and we'd agree.
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<havenwood>
bitflipper: The "web language" stuff is nonsense. I agree Rails brought a bunch of folk to Ruby. And we're glad.
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<jonh>
so if ruby is a web language not a general purpose language, if somenew new arises beyond the web and some fancy ruby framework becomes popular for that new fancy thing, what do we do
<jonh>
:D
<matthewd>
bitflipper: Following havenwood's point, would you call Java a web language?
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<bitflipper>
i think you're perceiving "ruby is a web language" as a bad thing and/or incorrectly. i said "ruby is a web language" in the context of "how is the rdoc template so bad". and by, "ruby is a web language" i meant that professionally, a hell of it a lot, if not most work in Ruby is done with the web. the point is ruby programmers are not alien to the web, so the template should reflect that.
<jonh>
does the universe as i know it explode
<havenwood>
bitflipper: I guess if a "web language" wasn't an actual thing I'd have not been confused by what you meant.
<havenwood>
But it is a real thing.
<bitflipper>
context also is a real thing
<matthewd>
Insert "popular" and I'd be fine
<havenwood>
agreed
<bitflipper>
sure, popular web language. i'm not trying to imply it can't do anything else.
<matthewd>
But as is, it sounds like a "this solves problems for a particular niche" categorization, which yes I perceive as a bad thing, regardless of what that niche is
<bitflipper>
yea. that wasn't my point. basically ruby programmers know the web. the rdoc templates don't reflect that.
<matthewd>
To come back to your actual point, though, yes.. it'd be nice if the doc templates were nicer
<matthewd>
PRs welcome ;)
<bitflipper>
sure, i've thought of some things i'd like to do but all of them involve yard and rubydoc.info
<bitflipper>
i'd like a browser extension that can lookup docs by class/method name
<bitflipper>
on rubydoc.info
<bitflipper>
then take me there or inline the docs i dunno. havent started yet
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<bitflipper>
imo yard/rubydoc.info is good enough already
<bitflipper>
the template
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<clemens3>
bitflipper: personally i love ruby and hate rails. personally i dont mind rails going away, but it is true, rails is what brought all the developers (and jobs) to ruby. python has the scientific libraries.. both to me are general purpose programming languages. is a pitty if ruby is not more used outside web development.. actually i do also web interfaces with ruby, but nothing fancy. lots of business logic and
<clemens3>
stuff that could be done in perl or shell..
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<clemens3>
ups, a bit late to the party:)
<adam12>
I've been shipping an insane amount of code using Roda+Sequel.
<adam12>
(also late to the party :P)
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<clemens3>
on that point, started using jekyll for statig web page generation for last two blogs..
<clemens3>
anyway, besides rails i also dislike javascript.. :). but that one still seems to go strong..
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<bitflipper>
i don't hate rails, but i would wish other frameworks received the same sort of adoption.
<bitflipper>
rails can still be useful. just not always the best tool for the job.
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<mikecmpbll>
:/
<havenwood>
adam12: <3 Roda
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<clemens3>
actually i am very happy with rack:)
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<havenwood>
clemens3: I just like a routing tree on top of Rack with plugins for commonly needed things. I really like the Rack and Sequel plugin systems.
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<bitflipper>
webrick servlets are fine for a local http server too.
<bitflipper>
that's what i use for cross-process communication between Chrome/browser and Ruby.
<bitflipper>
low traffic, so works fine
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<bitflipper>
also don't need to worry about packaging any gems, which is nice.
<clemens3>
with ruby you can keep it very simple if you want, but that is why it is difficult to attract more developers after rails hype cooled off
<clemens3>
havenwood: actually i didn
<havenwood>
A nice JSON CGI app, mmhmm. ;-)
<clemens3>
t dare to say, but besides performance, cgi actually is a nice simple interface
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<clemens3>
havenwood: totally agree with the article.. just you can't put cgi programmer on your resume
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<bitflipper>
yeah, if you want to integrate with a non-ruby web server cgi may be okay. but when i use webrick, nothing a non-ruby web server offers me is of interest. like performance.
<havenwood>
400k JSON requests per second is quite respectable.
<havenwood>
Compared to 650k top-performer.
<bitflipper>
yup
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<havenwood>
Roda's 190K isn't quite there but considering gems are available and it's standard Ruby, not bad!
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<funkytwig>
Hi, anyone know if there is a source level debuger I can use with ruby.
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<funkytwig>
I am using Aptana as a IDE but dont mind installing another (FOSS) one in needed
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<bitflipper>
there's a few debugging tools, rubymine sounds like what you want. there's other non-GUI methods for debugging as well.... irb, pry, byebug, ... cmd line tools.
<funkytwig>
bitflipper, looks promising. Have you used any of then, can you recoment?
<bitflipper>
haven't used any of them
<funkytwig>
bitflipper, would rather stay FOSS
<bitflipper>
what's foss mean.. GPL?
<clemens3>
funkytwig: the question is, is any experienced ruby developer using a debugger at all. i have no idea, but since Visual Basic times no debugger in other languages ever worked for me, e.g. Java at the time, so I got used using log statements and never looked back..
<funkytwig>
Free Open Source Software
<darix>
funkytwig: binding.pry
<bitflipper>
all those github projects are open source software. they're not GPL though.
<darix>
funkytwig: look up what it does.
<funkytwig>
darix, have been, look they seem simeler, still looking
<darix>
most of the time i end up coding a script up to a point then binding.pry. then tinkering with it in the pry shell. and then copy the code from .pry_history that i want to keep ;)
<clemens3>
i use pry for debugging, but never as a debugger. didn't know it was possible..
<bitflipper>
ah right. you were replying to the 30 day free trial.
<funkytwig>
FOSS coment wasregarding not wanting to use RubyMine, all other are cool
<clemens3>
darix: exactly my mode
<bitflipper>
cool yeah
<funkytwig>
I have been using log statements a lot but I have some verry odd stuff happening
<darix>
funkytwig: binding.pry ;)
<darix>
at the line before the weird stuff happens
<clemens3>
darix: or a combinariont, using load "lib/myclass.rb" after editing the code and then tinkering in pry again
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<funkytwig>
also in the past in various languages I have found a good source level debugger can really speed up problem solving.
<darix>
you get a repl right at the point of the program
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<darix>
all data set up and you can poke it
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<clemens3>
and play with your variables data structures
<funkytwig>
Have lost of log statements, suddenly the variable changes from a string to an array, for n apparent reason.
<bitflipper>
yeah. binding.pry alone can do a lot. but pry-stack_explorer looks a nice addon.
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<bitflipper>
pry-stack_explorer is a plugin for the Pry REPL that enables the user to navigate the call-stack.
<bitflipper>
very easy to use
<bitflipper>
show-stack
<bitflipper>
frame X
<funkytwig>
So binding.pry stops and I can single step with next, or so it seems so.
<bitflipper>
binding.pry will give you a repl. pry-stack_explorer will give you the ability to walk the call stack up until the point `binding.pry` has been called. for moving forward/next, i think pry-nav/pry-byebug is what you want.
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<bitflipper>
try pry-stack_explorer, so you can see how it works.
<bitflipper>
ah too bad. it doesn't work on ruby2+.
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<clemens3>
funkytwig: and i think exit if you just want to continue with the code in full speed