Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<kristianpaul>
antgreen: hello,
<kristianpaul>
antgreen: i was wondering (just for intelectual curiosity) where i can find the bsp for moxie in newlib
<kristianpaul>
i just noticed you have lots of libraries in src :-)
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<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: seems you are near to have the first nanonote build host for debian :-)
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<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: can the Ben detect whether the USB cable is inserted?
<wolfspraul>
and/or whether it is charging, I guess (I think it always tries to draw power from USB when connected)
<wolfspraul>
the reason I am asking is because I find the screen blanking so annoying, so I thought when the Ben is connected to USB, we could disable screen blanking entirely. I think as long as it's connected the screen should stay on.
<roh>
that should be possible, one way or another
<kristianpaul>
how i do recover "stashed" changes so i can commit?..
<kristianpaul>
oh, dear trying to remenber what did one month ago, and found some verilog bubbles wpwrak may find interesting :-)
<pabs3>
kristianpaul: git stash pop/apply
<kristianpaul>
pabs3: thanks !, but..
<kristianpaul>
what is actually pop?
<kristianpaul>
branch?
<pabs3>
applys the top patch in your stash, then removes it from the stash
<kristianpaul>
ah i undertand is like a cp /tmp/garbage /repo
<pabs3>
if you run gitk --all you'll see that the stash is just another branch
<kristianpaul>
k
<kristianpaul>
yeah a picture of this is very apreaciated
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, yes. the /sys/devices/platform/gpio-charger.0/power_supply/USB/online will indicate that if USB cable is inserted.
<kristianpaul>
oh :)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: nice
<wolfspraul>
is it possible to disable screen blanking when the USB cable is connected?
<xiangfu>
gmen2x: is kind of easy. we can add some code to gmenu2x detect the usb cable then disable/enable the screen blanking.
<xiangfu>
tty0: it needs a daemon app I guess. :)
<xiangfu>
gmenu2x and tty0/1/2/3 use different blanking method.
<xiangfu>
:)
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
I was trying the 11-13 image a bit and I'm super excited. great work!
<wolfspraul>
how do you like it?
<xiangfu>
I think it getting better.
<xiangfu>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
yes, definitely
<xiangfu>
I start to exciting when the 08-27 come out. :)
<xiangfu>
this 11-13 is better then 08-27.
<wolfspraul>
is the nanonote support in u-boot upstream now so that we can remove the special u-boot from openwrt?
<wolfspraul>
I'm a little worried that >80% of the 512mb image are full though (in 11-13)
<xiangfu>
when 11-13 come out. all I want is copy more media file to my nanonote. picture/video/music.
<wolfspraul>
I think we already had to remove some sw from the image in the past, and we will run into more trouble there
<wolfspraul>
we need the full 2gb I think
<wolfspraul>
in some way
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, u-boot. yes. needs some work. since the openwrt uboot-xburst support 3 device, I will try to merge them to new u-boot. or create another uboot-nanonote maybe. not sure.
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, yes. we removed gcc stuff.
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
bad
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I wanted to use irssi, but not there
<wolfspraul>
how do I disable screen blanking in tty0?
<wolfspraul>
another thing that confuses me is our long list of terminal selections
<wolfspraul>
when I'm in a terminal, is there an easy way to iterate over console fonts?
<wolfspraul>
I think there should be some hotkey that just flips through all fonts and redraws the screen
<xiangfu>
(tty0) use setterm -blank 0
<wolfspraul>
perfect, thanks!
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, (fonts) yes. since we have triggerhappy. it not hard to write a script file do that.
<xiangfu>
let me try to do that now. :)
<wolfspraul>
opkg list shows 6365 packages!?
<wolfspraul>
are we really building over 6000 packages?
<wolfspraul>
495 installed
<wolfspraul>
(I installed a few manually, maybe it was around 490 in the 11-13 image)
<xiangfu>
493
<xiangfu>
nanonote have totally 2900+ packages in package repo.
<wolfspraul>
do we have a nanonote-docs or so where we can start to write up tutorial/faq/tips/etc ?
<wolfspraul>
I see we have man, no info
<xiangfu>
don't have a nanonote-docs for now. that is the plan. haven't start. :)
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<wolfspraul>
ok sure, great
<wolfspraul>
maybe we just use html and one of the many text browsers we have
<wolfspraul>
wow, netsurf is so cool!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I think I have a new use case for my Ben - I leave it connected to my notebook, and move apps to the Ben
<wolfspraul>
I probably start with chat & email
<wolfspraul>
my emails will get shorter :-)
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<rejon>
xiangfu, can you come to that meeting tomorrow at 3 at fisheye?
<rejon>
without you, going to be like me and wolfgang talking in hand gestures
<wolfspraul>
I tried listener, and then mplayer to play the .wav, but it couldn't play because of missing codec...
<xiangfu>
yes.
<xiangfu>
'aplay' works.
<xiangfu>
still needs some work on mplayer :)
<wolfspraul>
I think now that the base system seems more or less under control (bootloader, kernel, rootfs/console/gui), we have chance to improve big time on the following 3 major features:
<wolfspraul>
1) backup
<wolfspraul>
2) encrypt
<wolfspraul>
3) update
<wolfspraul>
I keep thinking how to achieve it, and the most promising idea I can come up with is to look for existing small utilities/tools, even command line, to help with those.
<wolfspraul>
for update, can we rely on opkg to just keep updating packages?
<wolfspraul>
not sure whether we can update the bootloader or kernel that way, or how this interacts with major openwrt releases
<xiangfu>
rejon, oh
<xiangfu>
update. yes. the only one we should case is kernel. the openwrt kernel package is just a empty package only have some version file.
<xiangfu>
we should add some post-install. flash the uImage to kernel partition.
<xiangfu>
(updating packages). yes. we should try.
<xiangfu>
if the uClibc and gcc update that maybe more trouble?
<wolfspraul>
probably
<wolfspraul>
like you said we need to experiment carefully
<wolfspraul>
and in parallel continue the full image releases and reflash_ben.sh we use today
<xiangfu>
yes.
<wolfspraul>
how do most openwrt users update their devices? (mostly routers I guess)
<wolfspraul>
in my own openwrt usage, it was typically some serious focused effort to get it to a router, say a few hours or days full-time, and then I leave that router alone until the hardware fails x years later :-)
<wolfspraul>
no security updates, nothing
<wolfspraul>
is that the typical openwrt usage model? I hope not :-)
<xiangfu>
openwrt update is like 'upload a image file to router' since mostly router only have 4M or 8M flash.
<xiangfu>
I think this image include kernel and rootfs I guess. (forget the detail)
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering how people continue after that
<wolfspraul>
like I said - I just leave it like that until the hardware fails
<wolfspraul>
not the most secure approach
<wolfspraul>
I am sure a lot of people at least will install security updates incrementally, via opkg (?)
<wolfspraul>
how about upgrading to the next major openwrt version? maybe everybody just reflashes everything?
<wolfspraul>
we probably should not try something that is not in line with the typical update model of most openwrt users
<wolfspraul>
basically we can just do what is easy to do with openwrt
<jow_laptop>
wolfspraul: there is sysupgrade nowadays which simplifies reflashing
<jow_laptop>
and configs remained largely compatible during the last few years
<wolfspraul>
sysupgrade
<wolfspraul>
sounds good
<wolfspraul>
thanks!
<wolfspraul>
will check out
<wolfspraul>
jow_laptop: how about backup or encryption - any tools you are aware of?
<jow_laptop>
some people use loop-aes afair
<jow_laptop>
as for backup, don't know, what do oyu envision? something networked or more an archivier?
<wolfspraul>
something that protects me in case of nanonote loss or total failure
<wolfspraul>
drop in water, stolen, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so I want to have a backup on my notebook, then restore from that backup
<jow_laptop>
provide an httpd server with a simple backup tar.gz download?
<jow_laptop>
thats what we do for the webui
<jow_laptop>
there is "opkg list-changed-conffiles" which is useful to find user edited package configs
<jow_laptop>
plus home
<wolfspraul>
since we talk about openwrt - how about updates through opkg?
<wolfspraul>
is that possible/supported?
<jow_laptop>
technically doable
<wolfspraul>
even across major releases?
<wolfspraul>
or totally unsupported?
<jow_laptop>
there are two big issues of one doesn't apply for you
<jow_laptop>
one problem is that kernel updates through opkg are not pssoible
<jow_laptop>
the other is space on the squash+jffs2 combo
<jow_laptop>
oh and of curse the uclibc binary compat
<jow_laptop>
but that depends on how you develop
<jow_laptop>
I mena whether you choose to update it or not
<wolfspraul>
why are kernel updates through opkg not possible?
<jow_laptop>
because the kernel image is usaully in a dedicated flash partition
<jow_laptop>
without any fs
<jow_laptop>
which various from model to model
<jow_laptop>
*varies
<jow_laptop>
so there is no generic mechanism
<wolfspraul>
ok makes sense
<wolfspraul>
but we could have a dedicated package or post-install script
<jow_laptop>
if there is a way to write a new kernel from within a running openwrt then this is solvable as well
<jow_laptop>
one can encode the process in a postinstall script then
<jow_laptop>
so the bits and pieces for upgrade are all there
<wolfspraul>
how do most openwrt users upgrade?
<jow_laptop>
sysupgrade
<jow_laptop>
which is basically reflash + config restore
<jow_laptop>
it does not retain installed packages though
<jow_laptop>
most targets are still in the 4MB..8MB flash memory range
<jow_laptop>
there simply is no space for packaging overhead
<wolfspraul>
ok
* kristianpaul
havent update his routers since a year..
<wolfspraul>
no regular/automatic security updates?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: hey :-) sounds like my model :-)
<wolfspraul>
I get openwrt to setup the way I want to, then leave it untouched until hardware failure :-)
<kristianpaul>
well not that i wait for that, i regulary load new image as a RC is avaliable
<jow_laptop>
there are package upgrades, but binary releases are not openwrts strong point and we're still figuring it out
<jow_laptop>
organization-wise
<wolfspraul>
ok good
<wolfspraul>
so for now the Ben follows the common/regular openwrt model
<wolfspraul>
that's good
<jow_laptop>
that is basically up to the people building openwrt based distros :)
<wolfspraul>
how is usage of openwrt proper or distros developing actually?
<wolfspraul>
mostly routers?
<kristianpaul>
about backup, at lest consider that most apps will use root home folder, including at least for me some games and nanonote
<wolfspraul>
the number of supported models increasing/decreasing?
<wolfspraul>
I don't follow routers at all I have to admit...
<jow_laptop>
wolfspraul: it is becoming more models
<kristianpaul>
i have loose my maps and game leves after every relfash, but i'm really lazy to backup it up :)
<kristianpaul>
for the rest of precious content i just use a memcard
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: you dont need follow, use they work well you ignore :)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes, I don't think you are alone. So we need to improve that and make those 3 things dead simple: backup, encryption, update
<jow_laptop>
wolfspraul: you should build a backup facilityi nto reflahs-ben.sh
<jow_laptop>
make it connect the ben and download a tar.gz with changed configs plus user root
<jow_laptop>
then reflash
<jow_laptop>
then connect the ben again and restore it
<wolfspraul>
good idea
<wolfspraul>
do you have stats on the number of openwrt users?
<jow_laptop>
no
<jow_laptop>
I suppose we could evaluate the http server logs
<jow_laptop>
but that is skewed as dd-wrt uses openwrt packages too
<kristianpaul>
or include rootkits in next release ;-)
<kristianpaul>
openwrt is getting really nice those days, the other days i was consider even use like for a swtich OS
<wolfspraul>
can it build bootable images for the nanonote now?
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering whether we have more things left to upstream still, or all there already...
<jow_laptop>
tbh I never tried :)
<jow_laptop>
it will probably boot and drop to a busybox prompt
<jow_laptop>
no gmenu etc.
<wolfspraul>
that would be great
<wolfspraul>
jow_laptop: if you feel there is anything we can do better for openwrt upstream, please speak up
<jow_laptop>
can't think of anything
<jow_laptop>
some things will never be applicable mainline
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu worked hard to get nanonote support into u-boot upstream, we can probably cleanup a bit on the openwrt side now
<jow_laptop>
and the other stuff slowly trickles in
<jow_laptop>
like package updates
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, that's fine
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I also hope we get a bigger push behind OpenWrt on Milkymist One at some point
<wolfspraul>
Lars has been starting and made good progress, but very few people use that right now (understandably since there are serious limitations right now)
<wolfspraul>
jow_laptop: have you heard of Milkymist? :-) (you probably did, just checking...)
<jow_laptop>
yes, I follow the lists and the channel here
<wolfspraul>
to improve Linux and OpenWrt on it a lot of pieces are missing, such as mmu, lots of work in the Linux kernel, C++ compiler or even more recent gcc compiler support, dynamic linking missing as well I think
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: kristianpaul lekernel roh : since you guys asked about the led supply, a quick background
<wolfspraul>
basically it's a chinese friend who quit his job and is working on this board
<wolfspraul>
I don't fully understand the background of his work or business idea
<wolfspraul>
but he understands the gpl, is very open minded about 'open', etc.
<wolfspraul>
so I offered help in hosting his files, helping a bit with review, cleanup, process, translation to English, etc.
<wpwrak>
that's all very nice. but what on earth is the board doing ? ;-))
<wolfspraul>
but he has to drive it forward, it's his board and project. if he stops, the project stops and the files stay there for whatever future benefit (or none)
<wolfspraul>
there's a video, no?
<xiangfu>
antoniodariush, if you use the latest openwrt-xborst.git commit. it already included all patch about atBen.
<wolfspraul>
it's a led power supply
<wolfspraul>
I cannot qualify this project
<xiangfu>
antoniodariush, yes. after you select those packages. you have everything you need :)
<wolfspraul>
I only provide the project server, translation, some review, process, etc.
<wolfspraul>
for example it might be a good boom test case for me :-) (though I doubt I get to it)
<wpwrak>
i wonder why the board is so complex. is it driven from mains ?
<wolfspraul>
yes I think so
<wolfspraul>
I know very little, that's one of the goals of pulling it out into the open
<wolfspraul>
we have to see where Deng takes this
<antoniodariush>
xiangfu, excellent, thanks.
<xiangfu>
antoniodariush, keep up update about your two nanonotes. cool. what are you plan on this ? (just want know more about atBen :)
<xiangfu>
I mean keep us(people here) update. :)
<antoniodariush>
I (actually we) always keep you people updated :)
<antoniodariush>
wolfspraul, did you watch the video ?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
a little confusing :-)
<wolfspraul>
but it looks cool - I think about all the Bens I sold!
<antoniodariush>
yes we have plenty
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<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: mechanical side for this led lamp still WIP?
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
dream-in-progress
<wolfspraul>
the led array would be a standard one, this project is just the power supply
<kristianpaul>
ok :)
<wolfspraul>
and no mechanical at all, the idea is to maybe look for automotive customers (deng's idea, not mine)
<kristianpaul>
hum i see
<wolfspraul>
led lamps are shooting up everywhere now, I really cannot tell much about the differences etc.
<wolfspraul>
but I read for example that the new Boeing 787 has a spectactular LED lighting system, guess I have to fly with one to see it for myself :-)
<antgreen>
kristianpaul: newlib bsp for moxie? it depends what you mean by that. libgloss (in the same src repo as newlib) hooks into the gdb simulator and qemu port for IO, etc.
<Artyom>
arm7 should work fine because there is gpl-gps project which runs on ARM7 (about 30 or 50 MHz)
<kristianpaul>
ah yes
<Artyom>
and gpl-gps is based on osgps
<Artyom>
And position solution is not cpu hungry. Usualy position is calculated every second and it's not so often as tracking loops updating
<Artyom>
I've seen this project (Homemade GPS Receiver) but I don't like it. The source code is poor commented and not very clear (like in MM ;) )
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<kristianpaul>
yes i agree
<kristianpaul>
what call me atention is the RF DIY receiver part
<Artyom>
(Sorry, what is DIY stand for?)
<kristianpaul>
do it your self
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: so, you make flterm work your board also?
<Artyom>
Not yet, I had no enough time to experiment with flterm. And there is one potential problem that must be solved before.
<Artyom>
And I also have to prepare some demo-program. The stadard are not for my board
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<kristianpaul>
wich kind of demo progam you mean? for osgps mod?
<Artyom>
no, I mean that for testing flterm I could use a program in /software/demo directory. But I can't do it because my board differes from M1. So I have to write my own, or simplify existing ;)
<kristianpaul>
ah yes of course that demo.. (wich i never ran before... and i should :-))
<Artyom>
:))) (It seems that I do many stupid things that you didn't even try to ;) )
<kristianpaul>
he no just i met milkymist when demo was not needed, i mean flickernoise wich is the VJ* apps was ready
<kristianpaul>
so i dint get interested,but seems it cames with some debug facilites i should try someday
<kristianpaul>
ready written for rtems
<Artyom>
btw did you test RTEMS on your board? Did you write any additional (pgrogram/task/thread?)?
<Artyom>
I think I've read that M1 uses RTEMS as a base?
<kristianpaul>
yeah well rtems is the better supporte OS in terms of working drivers
<kristianpaul>
and yes i had tried rtems before
<kristianpaul>
i just moved to baremetal meanwhile i get sure all works fine (as i got some hangs in the pst)
<Artyom>
What drivers do you mean?
<kristianpaul>
ethernet (best tcp/ip stack than bios too), memory card (read only support), yaffs for NOR wich is a big plus as the only non-volatile file system with write support
<kristianpaul>
and framebuffer
<kristianpaul>
there is also a fpu but i dont know how usefull could be for us
<kristianpaul>
about programs.. well i tried a bit very basic sstuff, i dont get in to task/threads
<Artyom>
fpu can be usefull for tracking loops and for position calculation (What math functions does it support?)
<kristianpaul>
i need to learn more about that, also rtems have a messae passing system