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<TheIdea>
I've just come up with a proof of "existance" for my project. I have no clue how this could be expressed as code.
<TheIdea>
I base it on how I belive reality works
<TheIdea>
when a user joins the system value of X coins are created and then spread to all user equally
<TheIdea>
but their existance is bound to the existance of the user
<TheIdea>
if that user is removed for whatever reason
<TheIdea>
the coins are removed
<TheIdea>
the users existance is only approved if other users acknowledge the user existance
<TheIdea>
is this something?
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<fluffypony>
TheIdea: easy to Sybil attack, just create thousands of sock-puppet accounts all verifying each other
<TheIdea>
you forget the approving of others
<TheIdea>
if it is a fake account it is blocked
<TheIdea>
removed the cones have no value ar non existant
<TheIdea>
coins
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<TheIdea>
there is a human component that makes sure that doesnt happen
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<TheIdea>
there is a proof of work component but the difference is that it's kind of a users profile things he has done that make people want to aknowledge his existance
<TheIdea>
+c
<nsh>
the existence and uniqueness and consistent tracking of human actors is not the purview of the network
<nsh>
i think it would be both very hard to make it so, and almost certainly counterproductive to other objectives of the network
<nsh>
but it'd be interesting to be wrong about that
<TheIdea>
would have to be tested
<TheIdea>
it could start of in an test environment
<TheIdea>
like game
<nsh>
feel free to write up the notes for the idea somewhere in fully-formed sentences that you can link to :)
<fluffypony>
TheIdea: doesn't matter about "the others"
<fluffypony>
I am a real person
<fluffypony>
I can collude with nsh and a few others to approve a bunch of fake accounts
<nsh>
i already started colluding by myself in the hopes you're say that
<nsh>
*you'd
<fluffypony>
there we go
<TheIdea>
yes but then you just have a bunch of accounts
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<TheIdea>
you still need to create content and make other bleive that what you did is genuine
<TheIdea>
believe
<TheIdea>
I still need to implement a feature currently is just reputation
<TheIdea>
but I could call it something else
<TheIdea>
even if you collaborate with many others it might not be enough and the work to immense and the reward too low to do so
<TheIdea>
that's kind of what I'm trying to accomplish as protection
<TheIdea>
too
<fluffypony>
content creation is easy, you can just run articles through a spinner
<fluffypony>
and remember, there's this army of sockpuppets that will approve the content
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<fluffypony>
TheIdea: I think spend some time understanding what a Sybil attack is and how it relates to your idea
<fluffypony>
barriers to entry like "must create content" or "other people in the network must approve" are trivially overcome
<TheIdea>
yes I will
<TheIdea>
even if they are overcome if found out the account is removed and needs to user hast to start over
<TheIdea>
-needs
<TheIdea>
-t
<TheIdea>
a ground concept is that it is dynamically changable to addapt to corruption attepts
<TheIdea>
but resticted to the users approval
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<TheIdea>
well but since original creator(s) are always accredited that is found out at some point
<TheIdea>
and since the votes are dynamically changeable one can get kicked out
<TheIdea>
if someone creates fake content and people love that fake content he deserves a good reputation
<TheIdea>
with the risk that if found out he looses all of it
<nsh>
i think you need to start with technical reality and word towards positive feelygoody system properties, not the other way around
<nsh>
*work
<TheIdea>
I'm sorry I dont follow
<nsh>
because mathematics is only really plastic/malleable to a certain extent
<nsh>
you may have desired properties that simply cannot be trivially achieved or cannot be achieved at all given certain unchangable facts
<nsh>
such as that the system is decentralised, without a hierarchical trust structure, must be resistant to DoS and spam, has to avoid generation of specially empowered groups where possible, etc.
<nsh>
all of these things constrain what is possible to an incredible extent
<TheIdea>
true
<TheIdea>
but it has a dynamic hirachical structure
<TheIdea>
+e
<nsh>
as an analogy, you can design engines neglecting the unavoidable laws of thermodynamics
<nsh>
but history shows that people tend to entertain all kinds of unphysical ambitions when they do so, and dream up endless variations on impossible perpetual motion devices
<nsh>
and that's just one thing that people should have known was impossible for centuries before a consensus emerged on why exactly
<nsh>
and how exactly why it's impossible constructively helps make engines and mechanical devices that are possible, and make the more efficient, and make them more resiliant
<nsh>
*them
<nsh>
or as sherlock would put it, you first must eliminate the impossible
<nsh>
(the complementary moral hazard there is that sometimes conversely impossibility is asssumed when with a clever weakening of requirements, possibility emerges. which is what happened with bitcoin itself and the byzantine general's problem)
<TheIdea>
I don't believe in impossibilities only in a lack of understanding and thus defining it as impossibility
<nsh>
groovy :)
<TheIdea>
I'm aware that my project has big problems
<TheIdea>
that's whyt I'm trying to talk about it
<TheIdea>
-t
* nsh
nods
<TheIdea>
change it evolve it find others to work together on it
<TheIdea>
it's nothing I'd make alone
<TheIdea>
but I think it is the right direction
<TheIdea>
to a global problem
<nsh>
maybe try aiming for something you can make alone. when that can be demonstrated to have value, then it is more likely that collaborators will be drawn to work on it
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<TheIdea>
one that threatens humanitys survival
<nsh>
aiming for the moon is very ambitious
<TheIdea>
well I don't think Im alone
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<TheIdea>
I just have to fid a way to get ppl interested
<TheIdea>
find
<nsh>
interest doesn't solve problems, understanding does
<TheIdea>
but interest give motivation
<nsh>
people have been interested in not being hungry for 100 billion years, that didn't invent fertilizers
<nsh>
it took people being systematic in the explanation and testing of reality
<TheIdea>
and motivation to understand things
<nsh>
an tonne of motivation is not worth an gram of rigour
<nsh>
:)
<TheIdea>
motivation is the origin of everything
<nsh>
well, not we're talking philosophy and off-topic. good luck :)
<nsh>
*now
<TheIdea>
sry
<TheIdea>
I tend to do that
<TheIdea>
my thought a very jumpy
<TheIdea>
+s
<TheIdea>
I'm kind of not interested in anything I can do alone
<TheIdea>
one person cannot safe humanity from destrying itself
<TheIdea>
+o
<nsh>
one may not be able to bail out the ship alone, but one can start by making a strong effort to understand buckets :)
<TheIdea>
Well Im already doing that
<TheIdea>
I'm sadly not very fast
<TheIdea>
and easily misunderstood when conveying information
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<TheIdea>
I've been told that my system is weak against sybil attacks before and thus have looked them up but I kind of fail to see why. Either because I lack knowledge or because I can't describe my sytem well or both.
<TheIdea>
I'll harder to understand though
<TheIdea>
some pointers would be nice though
<TheIdea>
+work
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<fluffypony>
TheIdea: "if found out the account is removed" - who removes it?
<fluffypony>
or more bluntly: who is the policeman that decides on the removal?
<fluffypony>
because there's your central point of failure already
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<TheIdea>
it's solved like in real live ppl are voted into a postion and bound by a contract
<TheIdea>
life
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<TheIdea>
Ill be afk for a while
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<fluffypony>
TheIdea: voting in "real life" only works because the people are physically present
<fluffypony>
and even then you can still Sybil attack voting systems by having someone present themselves with a fake ID document
<fluffypony>
voting in decentralised systems simply doesn't work, as you have no way of verifying whether the person sitting behind the screen is a real person or not
<TheIdea>
I'll have to visualize my system next
<TheIdea>
it's hard to explain how everything works together
<fluffypony>
about the closest application we have that tried to prove existence was PGP / GPG
<fluffypony>
where creating identities is free, but you aren't trusted by default
<TheIdea>
yea my system is similar
<fluffypony>
you need to meet someone face-to-face and they would physically sign your key
<fluffypony>
so you know what happened
<fluffypony>
we used to have "key signing parties"
<fluffypony>
people would stop verifying documents after a few beers, and would sign everyone's key
<fluffypony>
the entire thing fell apart and is now basically useless for verifying identity
<fluffypony>
(verifying real-world identity, I mean)
<TheIdea>
tahts why I implement work of proof
<TheIdea>
I jsut don;t like how bitcoin does it
<fluffypony>
proof of work doesn't prevent anything
<fluffypony>
you're conflating two mechanisms
<TheIdea>
but it gives credibility
<fluffypony>
no it doesn't
<TheIdea>
why not?
<fluffypony>
it makes it expensive for a malicious system to attack another system
<fluffypony>
it doesn't prevent humans from being bought or beaten or tricked into doing something
<TheIdea>
and gives credibility depending on the work done
<TheIdea>
that will never be fixed
<fluffypony>
what work? who's doing it?
<TheIdea>
but a better damage control can be set in place
<TheIdea>
the user that registered
<TheIdea>
does the work himself
<TheIdea>
like in real life
<TheIdea>
it's not like the blockchain
<fluffypony>
you've suggested content creation, but that's trivially cheated
<fluffypony>
besides
<fluffypony>
let's say the work is truly hard
<fluffypony>
like "tow a tractor from Cape Town to Johannesburg"
<fluffypony>
all I do is go to some people in Johannesburg and pay them $100 each to verify that I did the work
<TheIdea>
sure and if found out the whole network is discredited
<fluffypony>
the system won't know that I've done that, because I pay them out-of-band
<fluffypony>
how would you find out?
<TheIdea>
good question
<fluffypony>
and, too, by the time I've scammed everyone out of thousands of $ do I really care?
<TheIdea>
that depends
<TheIdea>
you might need a proof of identity to trade with ppl
<fluffypony>
there will always be people that can be bought off, and people will die and I can take their identity over
<TheIdea>
yes
<TheIdea>
it it will always happen
<TheIdea>
and
<TheIdea>
that's why I try to create a dyunamically changable system
<TheIdea>
-u
<fluffypony>
so then it's centralised
<TheIdea>
that adapts to attacks
<TheIdea>
nope it's an decentralized sytem that adapts
<TheIdea>
but inside the sytem there is space for centralized sytems
<fluffypony>
so everyone has to be in agreement within this decentralised system
<TheIdea>
yes
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<TheIdea>
or at least >50%
<fluffypony>
50% of the nodes?
<TheIdea>
with failsafe that a user needs to understand the risks of a change
<TheIdea>
no 50% of the users
<fluffypony>
so then I just create thousands of fake accounts
<fluffypony>
and we refuse your changes
<TheIdea>
you can't
<TheIdea>
cant
<fluffypony>
of course I can
<TheIdea>
account creation is slow
<fluffypony>
I will go pay people out of band to verify my accounts
<TheIdea>
and has many hurdels to the point that it is not rentable
<fluffypony>
and then I will own more than 50% of the accounts
<fluffypony>
and those accounts will verify new accounts I create
<fluffypony>
I can do that at a faster rate than legitimate people will sign up
<fluffypony>
and I will trick legitimate people into verifying things
<fluffypony>
through phishing attacks and simple forgetfulness
<TheIdea>
like i said Ill have to visualize this
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<fluffypony>
I will constantly be more than 80% of the userbase, and I will reject all adaptations to prevent the attacks
<TheIdea>
not really
<TheIdea>
you can't have that many positionbs
<TheIdea>
b
<fluffypony>
of course I can, what prevents it?
<fluffypony>
nothing you've suggested thus far prevents me from growing my sock-puppet base faster than legitimate users are onboarded
<TheIdea>
Ill list the hurdles
<TheIdea>
its in my docs and I'll have to visualize it
<TheIdea>
first of all simple bot check, then X ammount of users are rendomly notified that a new user wants to join
<TheIdea>
users can decline or accept to interview the new user
<TheIdea>
if they accept they will be rewarded by the sytem
<fluffypony>
what's your acceptance threshold - 10 interviews?
<TheIdea>
but vouch with their own reputation
<TheIdea>
maybe depends on what the community decides on
<fluffypony>
(also as an aside, I'd like to point out that the harder it is to get onto a system the less likely that it's ever used by anybody)
<TheIdea>
then you have empty accounts that have 0 influence
<fluffypony>
so I go find people with influence and buy them off, or just beat a few of them with a pole so that they "interview" my new account
<TheIdea>
thats the good thing it's doesn;t have to its dynamically changable
<TheIdea>
+e
<TheIdea>
they cant they are randomly chosen
<TheIdea>
worldwide
<fluffypony>
well at the begining you only have 5 people on
<fluffypony>
and I'm creating my sock puppets from the beginning
<TheIdea>
you'll be foud out fast then
<TheIdea>
found
<fluffypony>
how, I can easily run 3 accounts in parallel
<fluffypony>
with different writing styles, and lots of content creation
<TheIdea>
but you still need to create that proof of work
<TheIdea>
and get that validated
<fluffypony>
so I use Fiverr for that
<fluffypony>
I can manage hundreds of accounts just by offloading the work
<TheIdea>
jsut because you add work it doesn't mean taht it get validated
<TheIdea>
you need to ad proof and gain vouchers
<fluffypony>
my work is genuine
<TheIdea>
add
<fluffypony>
so I'll be adding proof
<fluffypony>
and gaining vouchers
<fluffypony>
I'm just not the one actually doing the work
<TheIdea>
taht ok the sytem as groups
<TheIdea>
has
<TheIdea>
you dont have to
<TheIdea>
if they accept that you own that work
<TheIdea>
but you'll be trouble if they join the system and give proof that you were scamming
<TheIdea>
in
<fluffypony>
what proof can they possibly give
<fluffypony>
I have a basement with 20 labourers locked inside, who do all the work for me
<TheIdea>
the same proof that is accepted by courts
<TheIdea>
we are nearing Schrödinger's cat
<fluffypony>
no we're not
<fluffypony>
not by a long shot
<fluffypony>
you're designing a system that presumes millions of users
<TheIdea>
nobody will know if you have 20 ppl working for you in the basement until someone finds out
<fluffypony>
nobody will find out
<TheIdea>
it is your work then
<TheIdea>
and nobody can do anything against that
<fluffypony>
well, me and my 15 sock puppet accounts
<TheIdea>
not in my sytem nor in another
<fluffypony>
and I can scale it up from there
<TheIdea>
+s
<TheIdea>
but those accounts are not human
<fluffypony>
prove it
<fluffypony>
you give them a work challenge, they deliver
<fluffypony>
they produce content
<TheIdea>
they only create the work you created
<fluffypony>
they interact with other people
<fluffypony>
to all intents and purposes they appear to be legitimate people
<Taek>
Human as defined how? Once you have enough Sybils, the Sybil accounts can decide what counts as human. Suddenly, they are deciding that legit humans are actually fake. And then they get a stranglehold
<TheIdea>
you will have created an ai that is consicious then
<TheIdea>
I would count it as a legitimate human beeing
<fluffypony>
it's not an AI at all
<fluffypony>
it's some automation, but mostly cheap manual labour
<fluffypony>
Mechanical Turk
<TheIdea>
where is the interaction?
<fluffypony>
I farm the interaction off
<TheIdea>
from other users?
<fluffypony>
no, my basement with 20 people locked inside
<TheIdea>
you are confusing me are the 20 people in the basement real people or bots?
<fluffypony>
real people
<fluffypony>
that control 5000 accounts
<fluffypony>
with the help of automation
<TheIdea>
that will be very hard work to create blievable accounts
<TheIdea>
and one mistake and the whole network is removed
<fluffypony>
nonsense, every conversation is real
<fluffypony>
and those 5000 accounts don't all trust each other
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<fluffypony>
they're thinly connected, but they have connections with real people outside of the network
<TheIdea>
between 10 users? Using 5000 accounts how?
<fluffypony>
how often do you think prolific Redditors use the site?
<TheIdea>
even if you mix in real people
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<Taek>
TheIdea: the problem is that you've defined this concept of 'human' without fully specifying how to tell whether something is human.
<fluffypony>
you can average it out to 10 minutes a day, and with the right leverage you can appear to be a prolific Redditor
<Taek>
And more importantly, you haven't considered all the ways that it can be cheated
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<fluffypony>
so if my 20 people work 8 hours a day, they can appear to be 1000 people
<TheIdea>
that's why Im discussing it
<Taek>
instead of hand-waving, try to come up with something exact, that would know how to code up, and then ask yourself, if I was trying to cheat the system, what are the things I could do?
<TheIdea>
that would take years if I had to do that alone
<TheIdea>
probably 5 to 10
<Taek>
TheIdea: it would probably take years even if you had help
<TheIdea>
at least Id have help from smart ppl then
<TheIdea>
I'm kinda still not convinced that my system would be that easy to trick
<TheIdea>
I'll have to think hard about this
<Taek>
(except, we are telling you that the idea won't work no matter how many years you put into it)
<TheIdea>
thats why its dynamic
<TheIdea>
and can be changed
<TheIdea>
there is an answer it just hasn't been found yet
<Taek>
that is not a solution lol
<fluffypony>
lol
<TheIdea>
why not?
<TheIdea>
life itself works that way
<TheIdea>
we procreate and our offsprings adapt to the environment
<fluffypony>
because people are physically present!!
<fluffypony>
life works because it's outside of the Internet
<fluffypony>
you can't replicate that online precisely because of Sybil attacks
<Taek>
life has a very robust foundation
<TheIdea>
and we can use the concept to recreate something that might work on the www
<fluffypony>
TheIdea: I want to ask you something - do you think you're the first person to try and do that?
<TheIdea>
well as last resort everyone could just be indentified
<Taek>
have you tried cutting yourself? You heal pretty quickly because there are 10,000,000 things working together to make sure you can survive something like a cut
<Taek>
have you tried pulling a function out of a codebase? Disaster! Modern code isn't self healing
<TheIdea>
that shouldn't stop us from trying to create it
<TheIdea>
hopefully many
<Taek>
TheIdea: well, now you've found yourself a project that's much more ambitious than your original idea
<TheIdea>
did I?
<Taek>
lol yes, robust code is not easy to write, especially if you are expecting it to adapt to its environment
<TheIdea>
Im not
<TheIdea>
thats the job of the devs
<TheIdea>
code doesnt write itself
<Taek>
uh, and the devs don't work for free?
<TheIdea>
nope they get paid by the sytem
<TheIdea>
if they want to
<Taek>
that would imply that 'the system' has been built
<TheIdea>
yes
<Taek>
who pays the devs to build the system?
<TheIdea>
those that want the sytem to be created
<Taek>
so you :P
<TheIdea>
and those that decide to create the system
<TheIdea>
it's not something I'm gonna create if Im alone with this
<TheIdea>
I want to it to evolve
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<TheIdea>
day by day it's taking on a better shape
<TheIdea>
you guys are a huge influence
<TheIdea>
thx a lot
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<Taek>
you are welcome, but for what it's worth I think you should spend a lot more time researching adversarial systems, byzantine systems, and the various types of attacks that exist
<TheIdea>
I will
<TheIdea>
it's noted and will be researched
<Taek>
+1
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<TheIdea>
^-^
<fluffypony>
and Nash equilibrium
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<TheIdea>
Next step is gonna be that visualisation
<TheIdea>
that will hopefully help to understand and shape the sytem into something usefull
<bsm1175321>
Theldea: I think tying meatspace-identity to network identity is ultimately counterproductive. There are lots of good reasons for each human to have multiple network identities and accounts: software agents, corporations, risk mitigation, etc.
<bsm1175321>
Most of us have multiple email accounts, one for spammy usage and one for real usage, for instance. This kind of separation is good and necessary on any network.
<TheIdea>
you can still have different accounts in my system
<bsm1175321>
In a financial context, there's no reason for me to reveal my investments through my coffee purchasing habits, for instance.
<Taek>
I'm personally of the opinion that a strong decentralized identity/reputation system would be a fantastic thing, but I also think that there's absolutely no reason that an identity should be pegged to something in meatspace. Whether or not a thing is human doesn't matter if it is legitimately enriching your life
<TheIdea>
also the profile is just a space to link to other systems
<TheIdea>
it won;t replace email etc.
<Taek>
but I also think that we are not very close to reliable decentralized reputation
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<TheIdea>
jsut tun parallel to that
<bsm1175321>
What about a software agent, that legitimately acts on behalf of multiple people?
<bsm1175321>
Frankly, being identified in meatspace is a serious risk, and I generally seek to avoid it in (some of) my online interactoins.
<TheIdea>
run
<TheIdea>
tahts what IM trying toc reate
<TheIdea>
create
<TheIdea>
something where you can be anon but still have credibility
<TheIdea>
ok I have lots of stuff to do
<bsm1175321>
"reputation" is generally risk evaluation, and is fuzzy, probabilistic, and different people will rightfully come to different conclusions about "reputation". Fuzzy, probabalistic things should not be represented as fact in a distributed system.
<TheIdea>
plz let me work on the visal first
<TheIdea>
it's called reputation but its more proof of work
<TheIdea>
Im kinda exausted
<TheIdea>
lets talk another time
<TheIdea>
I've been on it all day now
<Taek>
bsm1175321: there's no reason you'd need to represent it as fact. It might be sufficient to have a web-of-trust sort of thing were you've pegged trust values to various identities and then you can see what they think of various things
<TheIdea>
@taek that is my aim
<TheIdea>
well Im off now I've fav the channel so Ill be around
<bsm1175321>
Taek: it may not be in a person's interest to allow aggregation of such information about himself.
<TheIdea>
I'd love to talk more about this soon
<bsm1175321>
And it's a risk if adversaries can see it.
<Taek>
you have to share information at some point
<Taek>
it's how socialzation works
<TheIdea>
damn it
<TheIdea>
you can choose who you share waht informatio with
<TheIdea>
it's not viewable by everyone
<Taek>
TheIdea: this channel is logged you can always read the stuff you've missed
<TheIdea>
it more about em participating
<TheIdea>
me
<TheIdea>
XD
<bsm1175321>
I'm actually working on an "identity" system. It does have such attestations, but it's up to the target/person the attestation is about to prove that the attestation is true and applies to them, if that's in their interest.
<bsm1175321>
e.g. demonstrating a letter of credit from your bank vs. indiscriminate data aggregation by "credit agencies".
<bsm1175321>
I'd like to destroy the latter, but the former is necessary.
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<TheIdea>
I just realized what if the reputation is group based
<TheIdea>
That is doesn't work in the root system
<TheIdea>
it
<TheIdea>
it
<TheIdea>
but then you would have to choose starting group and be bound to it
<TheIdea>
maybe just as an option
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<fluffypony>
oh so like default trust on Bitcointalk
<fluffypony>
because that worked so well
<fluffypony>
:-P
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<waxwing>
so with a schnorr M of M, imagining it scaling to large M in a bitcoin context; you'd still need to publish all the pubkeys wouldn't you?
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<waxwing>
or ... hmm, you consider the 'pubkey' as the sum of pubkeys? somehow that confuses me in terms of implementation. but, i guess it works..
<Eliel>
waxwing: yes, the pubkey in the tx will be a sum of the actual pubkeys.
<waxwing>
Eliel: yes it changes the model a bit, i'm just watching the vid on this topic from gmaxwell and he's pointing out that it removes accountability. a lot of fiddly subtle details here.
<Eliel>
waxwing: yes, there's a lot of subtlety involved.
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<waxwing>
also in the slides it says "direct Schnorr requires an additional round to agree on the nonce either at sign time or in advance"; i don't understand this - each party can send their nonce point to the next, surely (along with their sig value)?
<maaku>
waxwing: it's not safe to sign until everyone else has committed to a nonce
<maaku>
because the public key i could be advertizing is (p & -q)
<maaku>
er, p + -q
<maaku>
if p is one I have and q is one you have
<maaku>
hence the intermediate step of signing your nonce, which proves you have the secrets which compose your public key
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<waxwing>
maaku: thanks, i see. you could effectively remove the need for someone's permission by literally cancelling them for the equation. so one extra round trip, which is quite an annoyance.
<waxwing>
i guess it would be different if they were long term attested-to pubkeys? but then that's not the bitcoin scenario.
<johnwhitton>
Hi all, here’s a process question I’m trying to understand
<waxwing>
i think the reason this construction interests me so much is that it feels wrong intuitively that you can get effectively infinite scaling with no space cost. so something wrong with my intuition :)
<johnwhitton>
What I’m trying to work out is who authored the segwit document and is anybody coding this right now, and if so how would it be a fork from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
<johnwhitton>
Basically I’m trying to get an understanding of who’s working on segwit and how far along it is
<fluffypony>
johnwhitton: it's been in Elements Alpha since June last year
<fluffypony>
but as a hard fork version
<fluffypony>
and it's been "done" and in testing since December
<johnwhitton>
Thanks fluffypony and pigeons
<johnwhitton>
pigeons: also pointed me to the #segwit-dev channel
<johnwhitton>
fluffypony: Do you have a link to the repo on gihub?
<fluffypony>
no I don't, but #segwit-dev will be able to assist you further
<johnwhitton>
fluffypony: Thanks I’ll head over there :)
<fluffypony>
:)
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<nsh>
maaku, doesn't sipa's hash-then-add construction remove the concern of adversarial nonce choice by other parties?
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<maaku>
nsh: maybe; i'm not familiar with that construction