sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<eragmus>
buZz and cubicearth - Yes, the channel is used, but developers are also especially busy these days... so activity is distributed between all the various channels, e.g. bitcoin-wizards, segwit-dev, bitcoin-core-dev, bitcoin-dev, bitcoin, etc. etc.
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<mrkent>
Anyone here have a educated opinion on rootstock?
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<bsm117532>
mrkent: Excited about rootstock. Not sure I can offer an educated opinion on it.
<mrkent>
bsm117532: Do you understand how it alleviates high orphan rates with the quick block times?
<bsm117532>
nsh: It's in the formula at the end of p.1: "2^{2^D} \equiv 2^{2^D \mod \phi(N)) (\mod N)"
<bsm117532>
mrkent: no.
<bsm117532>
It's my understanding that they're going to use a federated peg, which in principle can come to consensus very fast?
<bsm117532>
I've been thinking about this a lot WRT Hyperledger and some conversations with the Blockstream folks.
<bsm117532>
We're still fundamentally missing a "prove what's going on in your ledger and I'll prove what's going on in mine" opcode.
<bsm117532>
The existence of which would be a sea change in this community...
<bsm117532>
I don't need to share your ledger, I just need to make proofs...
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<bsm117532>
No one wants to share ledgers. Everyone wants proof of execution.
<mrkent>
Got sources on proof of execution?
<bsm117532>
AKA better SPV. I have no sources.
<bsm117532>
I don't want to know or care how your database works. But I want to know that my trade is executed. How do we cryptographically communicate that?
<bsm117532>
SPV and UTXO set commitments are halfway there, but I feel we have a long way to go.
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<mrkent>
What about a 2WP sidechain that watched Bitcoin network? (assuming it's dependent on Bitcoin pegs to creation of any new side-coins)
<bsm117532>
I'd say that paper is far from clear on the concept.
<bsm117532>
There still exists a cryptographic "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" that has not been sufficiently demonstrated in a trustless context.
<mrkent>
bsm117532: which method in the rootstock blog post were you referring to? entangled blockchains?
* bsm117532
will read and try to comment intelligently in the morning.
<mrkent>
ty
<bsm117532>
Anything that is not externally, cryptographically verifiable, is not enough.
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<Taek>
I mean, the problem nobody has been able to get past is that we can't seem to prove the state of a chain concisely without sharing all of the data
<Taek>
a utxo commitment isn't sufficient, because the pow behind the block might be lying
<Taek>
you need to prove that a utxo set has a certain amount of work behind it, AND that the utxo set is accepted according to the consensus rules of whatever chain you are communicating with
<Taek>
snarks might one day be enough to do that
<Taek>
but, the cryptographic assumptions are strong and there is still a trusted setup that's required
<Taek>
so I wouldn't be happy using today's snarks as proof that a certain state exists
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<kanzure>
Taek: proof of consensus rule validity would render the point of sidechains somewhat unnecessary
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<instagibbs>
or like, bitcoin maybe
<instagibbs>
if we're already assuming super fast execution and actually valid implementations/crypto, we probably don't need PoW
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<maaku>
Taek: yeah if you had a compact proof of consensus rule validity, you wouldn't need sidechains. Or bitcoin.
<maaku>
the sidchains assumption is essentially SPV
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<Taek>
instagibbs, maaku: I don't think you could escape the work requirement. You would still need some way to pick between two different valid histories
<Taek>
but you wouldn't need sidechains anymore
<Taek>
I mean, we might also find that these things are achievable for very simplified consensus rules
<Taek>
for example, we can do certain operations, but those don't include cryptographic signatures
<Taek>
in which case sidechains would still be useful for the more complicated operations that you aren't able to create compact proofs for
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<maaku>
Taek: you won't need bitcoin. If you can have a compact proof of validity of an elided history, there's no reason to have a public ledger at all
<maaku>
There's much cooler stuff you could do
<Taek>
sure, the ledger doesn't need to be public
<Taek>
but I think you still need POW to choose between multiple valid histories
<Taek>
well, you also need some way of knowing that the history being presented to you is the one with the most pow
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<Taek>
or rather, the compact proof for the history, since the history itself is not being revealed
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<GreenIsMyPepper>
Taek: agree 100% with your earlier comment that the primary part which is the most difficult is proving state cocisely without sharing all the data. Ignoring ordering/PoW/etcetcetc, I wonder whether it's sufficient to have many thousands of entities share all state data be conclusively understood as accessible (in other words, how many people are needed to be able to be confident of "infor
<GreenIsMyPepper>
mation wants to be free" when the time comes)
<GreenIsMyPepper>
... i am talking about a "sidechains" or "sidechains-like" construction in thise case
<GreenIsMyPepper>
if you can presume that as true, you can punt a LOT of problems. it's messy in similar ways that PoW is messy, though
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<Taek>
the problem gets worse if you assume that people are going to be actively trying to censor the information
<Taek>
Bitcoin is a good example of 'probably good enough', but I wonder how slim you can make a network before it becomes reasonably possible to censor critical data
<GreenIsMyPepper>
yeah, i'd be interested in the order-of-magnitude ballpark for the number which is effectively uncensorable
<GreenIsMyPepper>
(assuming i.i.d. of participants ;)
<GreenIsMyPepper>
i feel like if that's sufficiently solved, everything else is EZPZ
<GreenIsMyPepper>
hm. ezpz should've been in quotes
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<adam3us>
the c,s encoding variant of schnorr https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=511074.msg5727641#msg5727641 that looks like R=kG, [c=H(R,m), s=k+cd], Q=dG, verify: c=?H(sG-cQ,m) (which works because kG=sG-cQ) is in part interesting because schnorr claims that you can safely truncate c so you get eg a 48byte instead of 64byte raw signature.
<adam3us>
however that claim is based on some dodgy assumptions (eg that the signer is trusted to not try to construct collisions) so that is actually relatively insecure, if you do that the signer with effort 2^64 (which is TMTOable) can create one sig c,s that is valid signature for two different messages m and m'. that might be exploitable in a bitcoin setting.
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<adam3us>
also the c,s version isnt batch verifiable
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