sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
Taek, maaku, GreenIsMyPepper: A ZKP for consensus rules would go a long way. To that end I often wonder what is the hurdle in having hashes and signature verification as ZKP primitives. Current ZKP's (Garbled Circuts, Snarks) implement hash functions in an incredibly inefficient way, and that is the source of their slowness...
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<kanzure>
er, isn't the slowness also a consequence of a cpu that runs at essentially 1 op/sec? (i don't know what the actual rate is. but it's slow.)
<bsm117532>
Turning logic gates into EC encryptions is a slowdown by a factor of roughly 10,000-100,000...yes.
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<bsm117532>
Also simulating logic gates on a general purpose CPU is another giant slowdown, even without the encryption.
<bsm117532>
And he's at NYU, I might have to go pester him...
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<bsm117532>
From the perspective of sharding, at least, I see a way out: different shards append UTXO set commitment proofs to a transaction, and it gets passed around until it has a full set of proofs. Then it can be committed and all the shards it modifies can validate its inputs.
<bsm117532>
Of course that's only one transaction. Doesn't help SPV wallets know which chain is better.
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<bsm117532>
kanzure: good talk, didn't have the info I was looking for. I still hope for further advances. I'd love to hear a way to make e.g. hashing a ZKP primitive.
* bsm117532
pushes on his braid paper to finish itself...
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<bsm117532>
amiller: Do you have any online talks about honey badger yet, or are you giving any soon that I might attend (NE USA)?
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<bsm117532>
We'd love to invite you to talk about it in NYC.
<bsm117532>
Ok I'm totally trying to get out of doing a careful read of your paper so I can cite you properly. But the invitation is open nonetheless ;-)
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<Taek>
bsm117532: you still have a data withholding problem. It's not enough for me to be able to see a zkp that the state is a certain way, I need to be able to take that proof and build the next proof that I've changed the state to be a new way
<Taek>
actually, when I put it like that, the challenge doesn't seem so insurmountable
<Taek>
you have to make sure that the output of the zkp gives you enough to build off of
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<Emcy>
hm the balance is considered available after 1 confirmation
<Emcy>
since when?
<molz>
since forever?
<Emcy>
it was 6
<molz>
you can spend it after 1 confirm too
<molz>
i just sent you 1 btc
<Emcy>
1 confirm was shown to be nearly as insecure as none
<molz>
true
<Emcy>
why are they respendable after 1 now
<molz>
idk
<Emcy>
rly weird
<Emcy>
thanks for the coins so
<molz>
np :)
<molz>
you should test segwit if you want
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<molz>
there's #segwit-dev channel
<molz>
also, create CLTV tx's to see how cool they are lol
<Emcy>
i have no earthly idea what segwit is
<Emcy>
does bitcoin disallow sending coins back to origin address now
<Emcy>
or does the UI completely steer you away from that
<molz>
it doesn't disallow
<molz>
but we're advised not to reuse addresses
<molz>
but for testnet who cares
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<Emcy>
the ui completely doesnt show an "origin" address for coins
<Emcy>
i think it used to
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<gwillen>
Emcy: the Core UI never showed 'from' addresses for coins, because that's not really a coherent notion
<gwillen>
if you look at the UTXOs that fed into the transaction creating a particular UTXO in your wallet, there could be more than one, and they needn't have corresponding addresses at all, they could be complex scripts
<Emcy>
huh i remember getting people to stop sending coins back to addresses they came from being a big deal once
<Emcy>
maybe that was some pool or web wallet thing doing that tho cant remember
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<Emcy>
does -gen still work
<Emcy>
doesnt seem to be doing anything
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<Emcy>
but its still listed as an option
<gwillen>
is that the flag to do cpu-mining?
<gwillen>
that was removed ages ago I think
<gwillen>
and yeah core never displayed 'from' addresses but I know blockchain.info did, maybe still does
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<Emcy>
hm it still exists in the cmd line options section
<molz>
you can do: setgenerate true on the debug console but i doubt you can mine any coin
<Emcy>
on testnet?
<molz>
yea
<molz>
"difficulty": 2341243.666283378, (on testnet, impossible to cpu mine)
<Emcy>
doesnt do anything anyway
<molz>
i think some mining companies put their old asics on testnet
<Emcy>
are asics mature yet
<molz>
i have no clue
<Emcy>
the asic market was doomed to be a funhouse until process nodes approached the state of the art
<Emcy>
libsekp256k1 is used for both signing and validation now right
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<molz>
oh now testnet difficulty is reset to 1, i guess you can mine then :)
<Emcy>
seemed an assload faster than i remember to sync
<molz>
yes i think so
<molz>
openssl is gone
<Emcy>
yay
<Emcy>
shame the cpu market is stagnant as a bog
<Emcy>
maybe amds new thing will kick the standard up to 8 cores finally
<Emcy>
molz did you send that 1 testcoin with no fee
<molz>
oh.. yes i did.. lol..
<molz>
what happened.. i set zero fee to test earlier
<molz>
to see if the coin would be stuck but on testnet it's not like mainnet
<Emcy>
seems like it has missed a few blox
<molz>
oh no
<molz>
it's still unconfirmed
<molz>
sorry i forgot to look at that before sending it
<molz>
weird earlier i sent a zero fee tx and it went fine
<Emcy>
thats just reboradcasting
<Emcy>
did they do the increasing the fee thing yet
<Emcy>
stuck coins are a plague
<molz>
ok forget that tx, i'm sending you another tx
<Emcy>
different coins?
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<molz>
ya from a different wallet
<molz>
we now have "abandontransaction" but it doesn't work well, maybe in the next version it will
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<waxwing>
guys, any reason you're not having this discussion in #bitcoin? not the right place here
<molz>
sorry he's banned from there but i'm done
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<Emcy>
i got to bounce anyway
<molz>
there's gotta be another bitcoin channel for our normal discussions like this without any ops
<waxwing>
molz: ##bitcoin
<molz>
no thanks, waxwing that channel is for scums
<waxwing>
oh, well it has ops. other than that why not PM?!
<molz>
because there're things i might not know and someone else can help us?
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<proslogion>
can you ever have something like a formally verified consensus lib?
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<kanzure>
proslogion: formal verification is definitely a goal for consensus-critical code, yes.
<proslogion>
kanzure: thanks
<kanzure>
and also formal verification of merklized abstract syntax trees and various transaction scripts
<kanzure>
Taek: dunno if it would eliminate the requirement for PoW (probably not), but it would be nice to have a family of hash functions where you can assert self-consistency with a set of rules that hash to a particular value that is easy to verify but intractable to forge
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<kanzure>
Taek: (such that the rule adherence can be verified without total verification) (i mean, other than time-dependent rules like ordering...)
<kanzure>
Taek: somewhat like the idea of renaming bitcoin to "the hash of a formally verified spec of the bitcoin rules" hehe
<bsm117532>
We'd definitely have to write down a formal definition from the rules and depart from this "Satoshi's code is the bug-for-bug protocol" silliness.
<bsm117532>
*of the rules
<kanzure>
i would agree with you if by that you mean "the existing bugs get included in the definition"
<kanzure>
unfortunately sussing out all the bugs is pretty challenging, because unknown unknowns and such
<bsm117532>
The existing bugs get found and fixed.
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<nsh>
core can converge on a formal model but should remain consensus-canonical while it does
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<maaku>
proslogion: iirc testing of libsecp256k1 involved some formal verification
<proslogion>
maaku: i will search for that, thanks
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<maaku>
i'm not sure your search will turn up anything, but you can ask on #secp256k1
<proslogion>
cool
<maaku>
by which I mean it was just something people did, and I'm not sure it's documented
<maaku>
anyway it is definately a goal among a certain subset of people (including those who did libsecp256k1) to rework the consensus code to be amenable to increasingly better formal verification
<maaku>
it's one of the reasons libsecp256k1 and all other new consensus code is typically done in C -- the tools are better for C over C++
<proslogion>
interesting, i didn't know there are tools for that :)
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<maaku>
well the tools call it 'static analysis' but that's just formal verification by another name
<nickler>
proslogion: I did not play around with formal verification, but I've applied a technique called 'symbolic execution' to some parts of the libsecp code. (https://klee.github.io/)
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<Taek>
bsm117532: fixing bugs is a hardfork, unfortunately. At that point it's almost better to create a separate currency entirely
<kanzure>
technically, a hard-fork is only when the bug has been triggered or exploited
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