sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<yoleaux>
[p2p-hackers] security techniques that rely on constrained nodes (was: Resources discussing secure time (nonce) in a distributed environment.)
<kanzure>
"So one might think this leads to wasted CPU resources, but the scarce resources a p2p net is trying to conserve are: bandwidth, and human satisfaction (getting what they expect)."
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<fluffypony>
Nice finds kanzure
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<rende>
Whats the best way to transmit a custom bitcoin tx using nodejs? I'm using bitcoinjs-lib
<rende>
Do I just need some node ip addresses and send to them over udp or something?
<rende>
shit looks like im the wrong channel
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<visitor>
Ive got a question about bitcoing mining
<visitor>
if anyone is there?
<visitor>
Ill ask anyway and pop back later.
<belcher>
try in #bitcoin visitor
<belcher>
also dont ask to ask, just ask
<visitor>
lol thanks
<visitor>
I dont get where to "register" a solved block once I manage to solve a block - I have a feeling theres something Im just not understanding about the lack of centralisation in bitcoin so maybe my question doesnt have an answer because Im asking the wrong question, so from where Im looking "to register a solved block", what is it Im not getting here
<fluffypony>
visitor: #bitcoin is the appropriate room for your question
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<rusty>
Fuck, I spent a day trying to figure out why my tx signatures were failing for SegWit. I finally stumbled onto the existence of BIP 143
<waxwing>
rusty: heh :)
<waxwing>
rusty: after replicating that, ndorier's site is useful i found for more sanity checks
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<bsm1175321>
Re: timing and the links posted by kanzure, some involving zooko...I often wonder if a dynamical definition of "time" would not be acceptable. Financial systems inherently have time and while from a database construction perspective that's ugly as sin, rent becomes due and obligations expire in the human financial world according to clocks.
<bsm1175321>
Couldn't there be a dynamical protocol (similar to bitcoin's retargeting) that let's people be wrong on average, but provably converges to an average "network p2p time" that is not terribad?
<bsm1175321>
I mean, If I used network latencies, tied together, as a clock, I should easily be able to get sub-second precision on time.
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<Eliel_>
bsm1175321: I think you could probably use an identity based DAG structure to manage a consensus about what the time is. That is, every participant records a message with current time, their identity and signature as well as several previously seen messages from other identities (and one of their own) about previous times.
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<Taek>
Eliel: would be more comforting if there were clear incentives to tell the right time, though I'm really not sure how you'd manage that
<Eliel_>
Taek: I think that as long as one node in the whole set of nodes participating is telling the right time, you can figure out the time.
<Eliel_>
with that structure
<Taek>
but what about the adversarial case? I don't see how, if half or more of the nodes attempting to mislead you, that you would be able to figure out the correct time?
<Eliel_>
at least given a little history
<Taek>
hmm
<Eliel_>
you have your own clock, so you can tell if others are skewing the time.
<Eliel_>
and can detect which nodes are doing it properly
<Taek>
as long as you have a minimal amount of trust with regards to your own clock :P
<Eliel_>
yes, you need to be able to trust your own clock (or another specific node in the network)
<r0ach>
Anyone in here know why Peter Todd said Bitpay's idea of dynamic block size was "broken" the other day? (I think it was Bitpay, I forgot). Wasn't their idea the same thing Monero already uses?
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<Taek>
does Monero use dynamic block size? Can you link to the bitpay proposal? There are a number of problems with all dynamic blocksize protocols that I know of
<Taek>
the majority of the problems come back to the fact that it gives the miners too much power, you can constantly disregard the bottom 10% of miners (in terms of ability to handle the load), and this causes an ongoing spiral until you've only got huge miners left
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<Eliel_>
yes, median has that problem. However, would that be the case if it wasn't median but something like 20th percentile? (median can be considered to be 50th percentile)
<r0ach>
I've never really understand the benefits of a dynamic block size over just manually engineering it to the max you think your system can handle in the first place, but that's just me heh
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<Taek>
r0ach: the major advantage is that technology is improving all the time. Not only is the networking code in Bitcoin getting better, but the underlying network as a whole is getting better
<Taek>
cpus faster, etc
<r0ach>
well, yea, the "if you believe you will not have to hard fork for the next 100 years" theory
<Taek>
ideally, you'd have some automatic way to detect what the max load of the system is and adjust to it, because growth is not very predictable
<Taek>
I think that are a lot of reasons to be afraid of hardforks
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<Taek>
like, monetary policy is sort of a hardfork on your currency
<Taek>
you change the underlying assumptions about the supply and demand
<Taek>
hardforking the throughput of the network has a similar effect
<Taek>
suddenly people who thought that their computers/connections were good enough for a while might find themselves needing to upgrade
<dEBRUYNE>
Taek: Yes Monero uses a dynamic blocksize limit
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<Taek>
and that generally goes against the philosophy of decentralization
<dEBRUYNE>
I think PT said it was broken because it didn´t use a penalty (the proposal)
<Taek>
*well the philosophy of Bitcoin
<Taek>
fluffypony: why does monero use a dynamic blocksize limit? lol
* dEBRUYNE
pages smooth
<dEBRUYNE>
Taek: The penalty in Monero makes it viable as far as I know, but one of the developers can probably elaborate better on it
<r0ach>
it's hard to look at things like that and figure out all the outlier cases, which is why I wanted Peter Todd to clarify on the Monero implementation vs Bitpay
<smooth>
Taek: the stated reason for the dynamic block size limit is to avoid having it be set by developers
<Taek>
smooth: who sets it? (thanks for joining)
<smooth>
an algorithm
<smooth>
i think it was discussed above?
<Taek>
I mean, what are the inputs that drive the algorithm?
<smooth>
median block size and, indirectly, market rate on transaction fees
<smooth>
also i kind of disagree with the "miners have too much power" whenever you get to >50% of miners
<smooth>
because >50% of miners can pretty well do whatever the hell they want in practice
<dEBRUYNE>
¨As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)², with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, th
<dEBRUYNE>
e 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.¨
<Taek>
ah, thanks
<dEBRUYNE>
^ tacotime´s comment
<Taek>
re: bitpay, bitpay allows exponential growth of the blocksize based on the average size of blocks over the past 3 months, that strikes me as pretty dangerous. Miners are incentivized to include any transactions that have fees which exceed the introduced orphan risk
<dEBRUYNE>
^ I think they changed that to median
<dEBRUYNE>
instead of average
<Taek>
and methods of preconsensus mean that the orphan risk is not guaranteed to be linear with the size of the transaction
<Taek>
ok, but the same problems still apply. All you need to do is keep a constant dump of low fee transactions in the system and you'll get maximum growth
<Taek>
miners that are larger or have better networks will have less issues with orphan risk
<Taek>
which means you again get the problem that the bottom few % are always going to be the victims
<Taek>
but iterate over that a few times and the floor is very high
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<Taek>
Spam attacks aside, I do believe that the natural growth of Bitcoin is going to exceed our network capabilities relatively quickly
<smooth>
well in monero with low fee transactions you will only get very slow growth
<Taek>
and, you get lazy implementations when fees are cheap. Exchanges that make 2 transactions per withdrawal, for example
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<Taek>
(I'm still focused on just the BitPay proposal)
<smooth>
(unless >50% of miners are being malicious)
<smooth>
ah okay, well i think their lack of any cost to increase the block size is problematic
<Taek>
agreed
<Taek>
huh. Subsidy based on number of coins in existence is pretty interesting. I guess I haven't looked at Monero very closely ever
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<smooth>
Taek: it works out to the same sort of exponential decline as btc, except by block
<Taek>
but then extends if you burn coins
<Taek>
which is a neat trick
<smooth>
right
<smooth>
in btc each epoch distributes 1/2 of the remaining coins; in moenro each block distributes 1/large_number of remaining coins
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