#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-02-19 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:11 <jtremback> "Blythe Masters is no longer just one of the most powerful women on the Street; she’s one of the most powerful women on the Block—the Blockchain, that is."

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00:25 <rgrant> is there a coherent argument for or against miners using BIP100 voting as a centralizing influence?

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00:26 <rgrant> i ask because the tension between "people picking numbers" and miners being in control of their own fee destiny is still part of our debate, although not in BIP100 form.

00:30 <smooth> It is clearly a form of collective bargaining. i guess it is not as clear whether you think that is "centralizing" or not.

00:31 <adlai> waxwing: algorithmic auditability! automatic transparency!

00:31 <rgrant> i've done some resarch of cartel behavior in other domains, and enforcement is a key aspect of stable cartels. Bitcoin has no punishment mechanisms for potentially-anonymous miners, but the blocksize can set an effective limit.

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02:13 <bsm117532> Hmmm...a simple Incremental Hash Function is a Merkle path to the *next* place to add an element in a Merkle tree. That seems so obvious now, don't know why I didn't think of it before... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/inchash-cs06.pdf

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02:13 <bsm117532> (possibly useful for UTXO set commitments)

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02:16 <bsm117532> The literature I've seen on constructions of incremental hash functions seems to point to a log(n) growth in the size of the hash as you add data. Merkle branches are very obviously log(n), so why not use them and evade the security considerations in the other constructions...

02:17 <kanzure> "NixOS: A purely functional Linux distribution" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/software-engineering/nixos/NixOS:%20A%20Purely%20Functional%20Linux%20Distribution.pdf

02:17 <kanzure> maaku: ^

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02:19 <bsm117532> Ooooh! That's a neat idea!

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04:04 <PeterR> I noticed BSM posted this paper by Croman, Decker, Eyal, et al: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf

04:04 <PeterR> The authors argue that to maintain the network's current level of "decentralization," a reasonable goal is for blocks to propagate within 10 min to 90% of the nodes (an 'effective throughput' of 90%, to use their terminology).

04:04 <PeterR> They present data to suggest that given the current p2p performance, this works out to approximately 4MB blocks.

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04:05 <PeterR> Questions for the channel:

04:05 <PeterR> 1. Is block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?

04:05 <PeterR> 2. Is "effective throughput" a useful metric and is >90% a reasonable target?

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04:10 <kanzure> increasing the resource requirements for participation will inevitably kick low-resource nodes off of the network

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04:14 <PeterR> That is a fairly generic statement that seems to be true but perhaps not that useful.

04:14 <PeterR> What I like about this new paper is that it centers around the network's propagation impedance: something that is both measurable and improvable.

04:15 <kanzure> i don't think it should be assumed to be possible to measure network propagation in absence of registered nodes

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04:17 <PeterR> Are you saying that you don't think Decker and Wattenhofer's methodology was valid?

04:17 <smooth> a percentage target seems useless

04:17 <smooth> what if there are 3 nodes and the all propagate within 5 seconds?

04:18 <PeterR> Yes, I see your point.

04:19 <kanzure> well their reference [10] is http://www.initc3.org/scalingblockchain/ which is a blank page

04:19 <kanzure> so i'm not sure how anyone would have evaluated their methods

04:20 <kanzure> anyway, since this is amiller, i am going to assume that it's coinoscope stuff, which is somewhat valid, but really you can only work with worst cases and try to improve the performance for worst-case participants rather than optimize for best-case participants

04:20 <PeterR> kanzure: this is the original paper that measured information propagation: http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23fc0/P2P2013_041.pdf

04:21 <PeterR> The authors of the most recent paper made new measurements since this paper was from 2012.

04:22 <PeterR> kanzure: you answered Q2 but not Q1. Do you agree that block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?

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04:24 <kanzure> i would be far more willing to say something about bandwidth (transactions, blocks, or whatever else) long before i would claim block propagation

04:25 <smooth> i see his answers as responsive to both Q2 and Q1

04:25 <kanzure> this is like the umpteenth time i have said this to you..

04:25 <smooth> "increasing the resource requirements" sounds like a bottleneck to me

04:27 <PeterR> Kanzure: yes, that is what I suspected you'd say. Just thought I'd ask again in the context of this latest paper :)

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04:29 <kanzure> next you're going to tell me alderaan shot first

04:33 <PeterR> I'm actually going to head off for sushi. Nice talking to you (and to smooth).

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05:27 <phantomcircuit> kanzure, this strategy of showing up and demanding people answer leading questions is getting really old

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08:59 <koshii> Are Bitcoin contracts required to have a deterministic result? (As Ethereum's are)

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09:05 <nsh> what's the alternative?

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09:20 <koshii> nsh: That they are not (due to not being validated?)

09:20 <koshii> nsh: This might be a fundamental misunderstanding though; that's why i'm asking.

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09:45 <gwillen> koshii: yes, it's impossible in the script to write a contract that would have a nondeterministic result, because a block is only valid if all transactions in it are valid, and if you could write a transaction whose validity was nondeterministic, you'd have a nondeterministicly-valid block, which would cause all sorts of shenanigans

09:46 <gwillen> like, random chain forks on different nodes

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09:58 <koshii> Yeah right, that makes sense

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10:05 <wumpus> right, the consensus code must have the same output given the same input on all nodes, otherwise different nodes will end up stuck or even on different forks. This is one of bitcoin's harder problems.

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10:08 <koshii> I have to correct something I said earlier. Upon some reading, apparently it's impossible in the script to write a contract that would have a nondeterministic result, because a block is only valid if all transactions in it are valid, and if you could write a transaction whose validity was nondeterministic, you'd have a nondeterministicly-valid block, which would cause all sorts of shenanigans.

10:08 <koshii> I will correct using your exact words if you don't mind, as above. I gave someone bad info earlier.

10:09 <koshii> Can I quote your IRC name gwillen?

10:09 <gwillen> koshii: absolutely, yeah, thanks for asking

10:09 <koshii> Thanks again.

10:10 <gwillen> np!

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14:08 <kanzure> phantomcircuit: yea i have been meaning to ban him from the mailing list

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14:08 <kanzure> i keep forgetting

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16:26 <waxwing> nick szabo tweets this eprint.iacr.org/2015/464.pdf and calls it a 'great survey'. am i alone in thinking the comparison it makes between PoW and PoS is mostly nonsense?

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16:30 <bsm1175321> waxwing: I'd agree with that.

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17:44 <fluffypony> waxwing: agreed, that survey is mostly rubbish

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17:45 <fluffypony> it's a pity this stopped getting updated: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins

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17:48 <tromp> there shld be no need to investigate insta/fast-mines; ideally, they're prevented by a distribution curve that gives out under 1% in the first month or so

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17:50 <fluffypony> tromp: the problem is that very few altcoins publish distribution curves, so effectively the author was doing just that, and then showing the conclusions that are drawn from that knowledge

17:52 <tromp> i wonder how many coins satisfy that slow start criterion

17:54 <fluffypony> the author lists 14 that are "acceptably mined", although it was last updated July 2014

17:55 <tromp> bitcoin reached 1% in 4200 blocks, which should happen after 29.167 days

17:57 <tromp> actually, block 4200 arrived 42 days after genesis!

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18:00 <tromp> making bitcoin a certified slow-starter

18:02 <tromp> of course, with the slow bi-weekly difficulty retarget, it could easily have been otherwise...

18:02 <fluffypony> yeah - I guess the differentiator is that there was little-to-no interest in mining Bitcoin at that point, not so with a newly launched altcoin

18:03 <tromp> which is why new launches should not have maximum reward from the start

18:03 <tromp> but precious few if any coins apply that lesson

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21:02 <mrkent> question regarding thin/weak blocks I had based on this response: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/46gtjm/thin_blocks_early_results_messages_are_on_average/d05frnd

21:04 <mrkent> Doesn't this (in a sense) alter consensus rules into the higher standard node relay requirements by incentivizing miners to follow those rules?

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