sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
OxADADA: typical bed time recently has been about 2am.
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<nanasho>
hi guys
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<nanasho>
how many blockchains do i need to unscrew a lightbulb
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<amiller>
kanzure, you mean just the largest multisig transaction seen on the blockchain?
<Taek>
depends on your threat model
<aj>
nanasho: just one, but you can never be certain that the lightbulb won't turn out to still be screwed in
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<Taek>
amiller: I think he's asking in general, not just related to the blockchain
<amiller>
hmm, "multisig" verification in contexts other than blockhcain?
<kanzure>
right, like "get 10,000 people together to sign and verify some sort of data"
<kanzure>
for example- some altchains have proposed using "just some group of trusted validators". what is the largest group of validators that has been attempted? could be outside of bitcoinland.
<kanzure>
especially n-of-n schemes.
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<amiller>
that's an interesting question
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<stevenroose_>
Just a thought: Do block anti-orphan schemea like DECOR+ increase or decrease decentralization? I.e. do mining pools benefit from them or not? Of course only when used with higher block rates (read in the seconds).
<stevenroose_>
(FYI, DECOR+ allows miners to keep mining on a block even though a new block is already announced and receive part of the mining fee if they anounce a "forking" block withing a certain time so that not all miners have to simultaniously stop mining to do verification before continuing to mine on a new block)
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<Luke-Jr>
stevenroose_: I think it helps decentralisation, but also helps attacks
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<stevenroose_>
Luke-Jr, how so attacks?
<stevenroose_>
51% ones? Because always a certain % of the network will not be mining the main chain?
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<aj>
does anyone know how big a cross-chain transfer transaction would actually be, with decentralised sidechains? (ie, using SPV proofs, rather than fixed membership multisig)
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<phantomcircuit>
aj, pretty large
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<aj>
phantomcircuit: yeah, but how large is that? 10kB? 100kB? 20MB?
<phantomcircuit>
aj, uh like 1-3kB
<aj>
phantomcircuit: oh, that's much smaller than i was thinking
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* andy-logbot
is logging
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<amiller>
it actually is fascinatingly different from the proposals from maaku, myself, everyone else
<amiller>
the key distinction as i understand it is that it is interactive
<amiller>
that is, someone says "here's a sidechains withdrawal proof!"
<amiller>
and if it's bogus, someone else is supposed to say "nope here's evidence that i have a longer blockchain that doesn't have your tx in it!"
<amiller>
so far so good, that's the same as in the sidechains paper and the handful of related forum discussions....
<amiller>
the difference is, the proposal in this paper has like O(log N) back-and-forhts
<amiller>
still, they have a theorem and some pseudocode about which the theorem applies
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<instagibbs>
cool
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<instagibbs>
I don't think much work has been done on that end since the whitepaper.
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<bramc>
Hey everybody
<bramc>
I came up with a bright idea this morning, which is that the rule that ONLY0 and ONLY1 get skipped over in the actual hashing, not just in the data structure
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<zooko>
Dear -wizards: is there anyone who is actually doing live Atomic Cross-Chain Swaps (Tier Nolan Protocol)?
<zooko>
Or, if not Tier Nolan Protocol some other method such as that Ethereum app that embeds the Bitcoin blockchain into Ethereum?
<zooko>
What I want is real users (customers) doing it in real life, or at least a company or effort aimed at giving real users such a tool and teaching them how to do it in real life.
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<Aleph0>
zooko: which ethereum app?
<Aleph0>
there's only been very brief demos.
<zooko>
Aleph0: let's see if I can find it again …
<nickler>
zooko: what exactly do you want from ACCS that ShapeShift can't provide? Is it just not having to rely on a third party?
<nickler>
It seems to me that ACCS is hard to get right in practice: you still need a matching mechanism and at least the simple version of ACCS (I haven't looked into Tier Nolan's BIP) appears to be very vulnerable to simple DoS attacks.
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<zooko>
nickler: yes, just that.
<zooko>
nickler: you could imagine a future version of ShapeShift that still does the matching but uses ACCS if both parties have ACCS-capable wallets.
<zooko>
And you could imagine a future future version of ShapeShift and/or OpenBazaar that replaces the centralized matching with some kind of decentralized marketplace.
<zooko>
nickler: Hm, haven't thought carefully about the DoS you mention.
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<zooko>
Here's this delightful thing with which Rusty blew my mind at SB/HK: Lightning Network is a superset of ACCS!
<kang_>
zooko: I hope you know about mercuryex and #bitcoin-plumbers(adlai's project)
<nickler>
the DoS is just to force the other party to wait out the locktime (for which you don't have to lock up your own funds)
<zooko>
nickler: *nod*
<zooko>
kang_: yes, I've heard of Mercury-whatchacallit.
<kang_>
zooko: Also have a look at adlai's project.. It lets you choose between 'if counterparty does not go through the trade, our funds are locked and cannot used in another trade for the duration of timeout' or a 2of3 model with oracles
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<adlai>
zooko, kang_ , scalpl currently only deals with centralized exchanges... you could say they are its training wheels for when ACCS is possible.
<kang_>
adlai: Why isn't it possible now?
<adlai>
because the code isn't written! and decentralized order matching is still an open problem
<kang_>
adlai: How does coinjoin implement decentralized order matching?
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<belcher>
kang_ it doesnt
<kang_>
belcher: oh!
<adlai>
"coinjoin" is the protocol, like ACCS. joinmarket (the market for coinjoin participation) uses a centralized order advertisement location, and participants use customizable counterparty selection algorithms
<kang_>
adlai: Yes, I meant how do coinjoin implementations do it..
<kang_>
Can it be done using bitmessage?
<adlai>
yes, but very slowly
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<adlai>
nickler: thank you :D
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* adlai
chalks it up to coding alone for too long
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<rgrant>
zooko: does bitsquare.io qualify? it allows altcoins but is still on testnet.