sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<psztorc>
Why not?
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<adlai>
if people stopped calling publications "BIPs" unless they followed patches-first-patter-latter, that'd be nice
<adlai>
Luke-Jr: one of the worst curses of Bitcoin is that people take eachother seriously in all the wrong ways and none of the right ones
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<adlai>
what's the plan for long-term handling of the utxo set? i'm aware of bramc's work towards making utxo commitments feasible, but is anybody focusing on ways to either add a cost to utxo spam, or at least incentivise its reduction?
<adlai>
capping utxo set size sounds a little like introducing a cumulative blockchain cap rather than per-block...
<instagibbs>
it's a cumulative datastructure that requires fast access :/
<adlai>
aj: thank you
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<Luke-Jr>
adlai: SegWit does add such costs (by discounting non-UTXO data)
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<Luke-Jr>
also by not allowing the entire 2 MB to be stuffed with UTXO inflation spam
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<Luke-Jr>
(ie, only 1 MB of it can be UTXO changes)
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<adlai>
wouldn't the segwit softfork only increase the cost of utxo spam if segwit transactions become popular enough to raise the fee market to a degree felt by non-segwit transactions?
<aj>
it increases the cost of utxo spam compared to just raising the blocksize to 2MB
<Luke-Jr>
adlai: that seems probable
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<Luke-Jr>
adlai: most scaling solutions do that, really
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<Luke-Jr>
eg, Lightning reduces the per-legit-tx cost such that spam becomes much more expensive relatively
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<adlai>
i think aj nailed it: this is a reason for segwit-softfork being a qualitatively better scaling "can-kick" than a 2MB hardfork
<adlai>
Luke-Jr: my concern is that expense relative to non-spam use isn't enough, if non-spam use becomes cheaper... you might even spam getting cheaper in absolute terms, if non-spam use doesn't increase to take advantage of low fees
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<adlai>
"absolute terms" being "total bitcoin cost"; this analysis does not account for absolutes beyond...
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<Luke-Jr>
adlai: miners are less incentivised to misbehave mining the spam
<Luke-Jr>
and it is easier for them to detect it
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<aj>
anyone know how big the mempool is at the moment, if you drop all the relay limits to zero?
<belcher>
it depends on stuff like how long your node has been running, there is no "the" mempool
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<aj>
sure; i'm wondering when my mempool will have "caught up"; i'm at ~11MB atm
<belcher>
better for #bitcoin, but you dont catch up, your newly-started node will just store transactions as they arrive, not get historical ones
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<rusty>
belcher: not quite true, there's generally a steady state. In my experience it's about a week, but that was over a year ago.
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<bramc>
Hey everybody
<bramc>
So I'm *this* close to switching from 'real' mark and sweep of variable size entries leaves to having fixed size individual nodes and making a linked list of unused nodes
<bramc>
The downside is that it wastes a bit of space in nodes which aren't terminal, and about half the space in nodes which only have something on one side. On the plus side, it wastes less space because blocks as a whole get a lot more full, and it's vastly simpler
<bramc>
something only on one side I mean
<bramc>
Whether it's net more or less cache misses is highly unclear, it depends on the usage pattern
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<bramc>
Anybody have any thoughts? Or even have any idea what I'm babbling about?
* adlai
wishes bramc would publish a "this is what I've been babbling about" already, even if it's not frozen solid yet :)
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<bramc>
The other thing I could do is make intermediate values with stuff only on one side have to get recomputed, to save space at the expense of CPU and complexity. Maybe I should punt and say that I'll do that 'later'
<bramc>
Really skimping on just the last branch would give most of the savings there, and wouldn't be all that complex
<bramc>
I'm really liking this single level punt. Then the node values become MIDDLE, ONLY0, ONLY1, TERM0, TERM1, TERMBOTH, and ONLY0_THEN_TERMBOTH and ONLY1_THEN_TERMBOTH
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<bramc>
Which saves most of the space wasted by ONLY0 and ONLY1 at only a modest cost to extra CPU and complexity
<bramc>
And best of all, I can totally punt on it for now because it's a nice separated task to put in the TODO list
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<bramc>
Okay I'm sold. Now I need to break out the machete. Eugh.
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<bramc>
Come to think of it, all ONLY0 and ONLY1 before a TERMBOTH can be skipped all the time, with no special designation
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<bramc>
ONLY0 and ONLY1 still have to be included because there might be more complicated stuff before them and because they occur in branches, but that's a small amount of wasted space
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<adlai>
bramc: what's active_child?
<bramc>
adlai: That's the child which overflows are currently being put into
<bramc>
adlai: It's a simple trick to make it so that the children are mostly filled up without having a complex structure where the parent remembers how much is in different children and constantly tries to juggle them
<bramc>
adlai: When a leaf child gets too big to fit in a single block some of its data is put into the parent's active child as well. This isn't implemented yet though.
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* adlai
will simply have to read the fine source :)
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* andy-logbot
is logging
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<OxADADA>
Taek: what are your typical awake hours?
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<kanzure>
"hash the consensus rules that were used to generate the block, and if the rules don't match up with the block, then the block should be rejected by others" ... unfortunately i think this would make it hard to do upgrades.
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<kanzure>
also, what's the largest-in-terms-of-participants multisig verification pool that anyone has tried in real world deployment? do we have numbers on that...
<kanzure>
amiller: maybe you know?
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