sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<roybadam1>
Anyone have a reference to the hybrid PoW proposal (I think) involving every tenth block using a different PoW algorithm? I think I saw a reference to such an idea recently, but I don't recall where
<bsm1175321>
What's the point of that?
<roybadam1>
I don't know the original context, and I suspect it may be very different from what I'm thinking about
<roybadam1>
My thought is that something on those lines could be used to incetivise building mining infrastructure around a new PoW without disenfranchising existing miners - in the event that at some point in the future cryptological attacks on SHA256 meant that we needed to transition away from it. Based on previous history of such attacks, it's likely that we'd have many years to transition, so it's intersting to think about how one might do it in an o
<bsm1175321>
roybadam1: You got cut off at "do it in an o..."
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<roybadam1>
...do it in an orderly manner
<roybadam1>
I vaguely think the original context was to allow every 10th block to be GPU mined - which isn't my interest at all. I'd still be interested in a reference to the proposal though, if anyone has seen it or knows who was behind it.
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<roybadam1>
(I'm very strongly against change of bitcoin PoW absent cryptographic necessity- but it's still interesting to reflect on what we might do in the event of such a necessity)
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<roybadam1>
Mainly I was going to parenthetically reference the concept in a forum post I was considering writing and I'd like to be able to credit it to it's originator
<roybadam1>
*its
<roybadam1>
(sorry, it's late)
<Luke-Jr>
kanzure: scared me there. I thought it said Toomin. :P
<kanzure>
you mean toomim
<kanzure>
jtimon is someone else
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<Luke-Jr>
[23:14:50] <yoleaux> Open Source Pioneer Michael Tiemann On the Myth of the Average - Slashdot <-- there
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<Anduck>
would it be possible to split a payment channel for 3rd participant? could it be divided without broadcasting anything to blockchain?
<Anduck>
or could a payment channel initializing tx include opening for a multi-participant channel?
<Anduck>
so one tx could open a channel for many people
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<Eliel>
Anduck: No. I think a N participant channel is possible, but it'd require N of N multisig address as a base. As far as I know, there's no way to transform 2of2 into 3of3 without a new transaction.
<Anduck>
okay. thanks
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<Eliel>
that being said, if the 3rd participant trusts one of the others in the channel, it could perhaps work. However, it requires the trust because the other two can decide to cancel the allocation to the 3rd member if they agree.
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<maaku_>
bsm1175321: depends on what you want to do with the UTXO commitments...
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<fluffypony>
roybadam1: most of those schemes are uninteresting due to the added verification cost, which opens up a DoS attack surface on nodes
<fluffypony>
roybadam1: about the only interesting PoW that Bitcoin could look at, if it had to move, is SHA3
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* andy-logbot
is logging
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<Eliel>
Anduck: an additional comment on the 3 participant channel thing. I just realized that while it's not possible to move from 2 way channel to a 3 way channel, a 3 way channel can be downgraded to 2 way without closing it. However, it requires the participant leaving the channel to disclose their channel private key to the others, so it requires careful design if it is to work with BIP32 wallets.
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<bsm1175321>
maaku: The (my) intended use is to prove to a third party that knows the root hash R=HASH(A,B,C), that the new root hash is R'=HASH(A,C) upon removing a single UTXO B. This way the third party does not have to hold the entire UTXO set and could be holding only a fraction of it.
<bsm1175321>
(likewise for adding an output)
<roybadam1>
fluffypony: right, but the question is how would you provide incentives to build up the SHA-3 infrastructure in a way that existing miners wouldl support?
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<roybadam1>
a flag day, although not necessarily impossible assuming several years of advance notice, is likely to be problematic for investment in mining infrastructure because otherwise useful mining hardware will be obsoleted overnight
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<roybadam1>
Maybe it's doable - and maybe it's not really worse than halvingdays, but it's not clear we can't do better
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<bsm1175321>
roybadam1: multi-algo coins work by having one target difficulty for each algo. All you really need to do is have a target difficulty schedule that sends one of the target difficulties to infinity over some time inteval.
<zooko>
bsm1175321: "Instead of working with full trees, if we want to focus on performance, then we need to limit
<zooko>
the tree depth on one or two [6, 7]."
<zooko>
bsm1175321: wat
<zooko>
bsm1175321: I don't understand that incremental-hashing stuff, but I'd advise you to just use a Merkle Tree, like everyone else uses for everything else.
<zooko>
“Merkle Trees go well with everything.”
<roybadam1>
the problem is that the developmejnt cycles for new ASICs are long, and hence it's unlikely that the transition period is going to be very large compared to the hardware development cycle
<roybadam1>
bsm1175321: can you point me to any multi-algo alts? I don't follow altcoins.
<bsm1175321>
zooko: log(n) proofs to achieve what I want to is a substantial overhead. But I might do it anyway, at least for comparison's sake. What I haven't figured out is that the tree can be fully rebalanced without having all leaves.
<zooko>
bsm1175321: I don't understand your use case, but I'd be interested. I'm part of the Merkle Tree Huggers Club. ;-)
<bsm1175321>
zooko: Sharding the blockchain by sharding the UTXO set...
<bsm1175321>
bramc hasn't been on in days and I want to pick his brain on this ;-)
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<zooko>
bsm1175321: the naive application of Merkle Trees is probably already good enough for that, right?
<zooko>
Because log(n) is small even when n is big. :-)
<Eliel>
zooko: incremental hash function is O(1) here.
<bsm1175321>
zooko: If I can convince myself that I know how to rebalance the tree, yes. However we're talking about adding a log(n) proof to *each* input and *each* output. So we're talking about (# inputs + # outputs)*log(UTXO set size)
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<bsm1175321>
log(UTXO set size) is around 20 I believe. We're talking nearly a kilobyte of proof *per* input and output.
<roybadam1>
I'll repeat my origingal question about multi-algo, though, on the off chance that soemone who knows the answer is here now.
<roybadam1>
Anyone have a reference to the proposal for using a different PoW for every 10th bitcoin block?
<zooko>
bsm1175321: hm.
<bsm1175321>
zooko: To be clear, these proofs allow anyone to compute the new UTXO set comitment after a particular txn is applied.
<roybadam1>
I gather someone proposed such a thing - I saw a reference on reddit, but no idea who it was
<zooko>
Eliel: I don't understand incremental hash functions.
<zooko>
Eliel: and saying it is O(1) doesn't tell me if it is > or < than 1 KB per input and output for bsm's use.
<bsm1175321>
roybadam1: every 10th block sounds like a dumb idea FWIW. Switching smoothly to a new hash function is doable. Just give the new function a low target difficulty and with each retarget, change the ratio between the two functions, such that within a 2016 block window, you expect 1 & 2015 for the first window, 10 & 2006, 20 & 1996, etc, with successive retargets.
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<bsm1175321>
zooko: If you had a (hypothetical) incremental hash function such that R = HASH(A,B,C) where A,B,C are themselves individual hashes (256 bits) then your proof is 2*(hash size) per output. For N inputs+outputs its (n+1)*(hash size)
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<bsm1175321>
Thus the proof is comparable in size to the txn itself.
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<zooko>
bsm1175321: sorry, I'm still ignorant of your use case. Is it written down somewhere? You said something sharding something UTXO set.
<bsm1175321>
zooko: I'm thinking out loud, really, haven't written it down yet.
<bsm1175321>
Trying to finish my braids paper this weekend and getting distracted by ideas for the next paper after that...
<zooko>
So, could you explain to me about this (hypothetical) incremental hash function?
<bsm1175321>
zooko: sure, incementality is the idea that if you have HASH(data) and you want to add more data, the new hash can be computed *using* the old hash, like HASH(HASH(data),increment) for example.
<bsm1175321>
That way you don't have to re-hash the entire dataset to get HASH(data+increment).
<bsm1175321>
More generally, sharding requires the ability to add and remove from the UTXO set, while only posessing a fraction of it, and prove to everyone you've done so consistently.
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<bsm1175321>
If I can see a transaction and see that it spends the utxo B, and you give me A,C such that the previous block's root hash (I presume everyone has the headers for all blocks) was R=HASH(A,B,C), then I know that the next root hash should be R'=HASH(A,C).
<zooko>
bsm1175321: so, this notion of "incremental hashing" is still kind of confusing to me.
<zooko>
bsm1175321: you're not familiar with Merkle-Damgard Chaining are you?
<bsm1175321>
Sounds familiar, I'll have to jog my memory...
<zooko>
Nevermind.
<bsm1175321>
Ah yes. I know.
<bsm1175321>
I don't think you can use Merkle-Damgard to construct an incremental hash function.
<zooko>
So if you're just going to *add* incremental additions, then it seems like the most naive thing, such as the "HASH(HASH(data),increment)" that you just mentioned is great.
<zooko>
But do you also want to remove elements ? Or what. I don't understand the UTXO use you mentioned next.
<bsm1175321>
One needs to remove also, so composed hashing HASH(HASH(HASH...))) is not so useful.
<zooko>
Is R=HASH(A,B,C) showing that A, B, and C have been spent or that they haven't been spent?
<bsm1175321>
R=HASH(A,B,C) is showing that B is present in the UTXO set. A is a composite hash of everything in the (sorted) utxo set less than B, and C is a composite hash of everything in the sorted utxo set greater than B.
<bsm1175321>
That's why I got excited by the Keccak one I posted previously...
<bsm1175321>
See Section 1.1 "Standard Constructions Fail" where they talk about Merkle-Damagard.
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<jl2012>
if you can have extra items in header, what would you like to see? I want to add height and median_time_past
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<bsm1175321>
jl2012: UTXO commitment hash ;-)
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<jl2012>
bsm1175321 yes, this should be added somehow
<jl2012>
anyone thinks block_size is useful?
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<adlai>
if it's anything but constant forever, then it makes sense to track it (similar to the difficulty bits)
<Guest34917>
fluffypony uh what about cooko cycles?
<Guest34917>
bsm117532 check the logs. Incremental hash functions for this exact purpose have been discussed before.
<bsm1175321>
Guest34917: probably by me... ;-)
<Guest34917>
Possibly. On my phone and can't check.
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<bsm1175321>
Guest34917: I am not finding much in the logs. If you know where to look and can provide a pointer, I'd appreciate it.
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<Guest34917>
Sorry on my phone I'll look later
<bsm1175321>
thanks
<Guest34917>
This is maaku btw
* bsm1175321
wonders what this IRC client is that generates Guest12345...
<fluffypony>
Guest34917: Cuckoo Cycle is very interesting - we're doing a soft implementation of it Monero via PoW-on-connect, will give us a chance to evaluate it
<Guest34917>
He is a regular if quiet person, and a purposefully chosen nick I'm sure
<fluffypony>
*but* we're talking about Bitcoin, where miners are used to ASICs and the like - a switch to commodity hardware might be overly harsh a chane
<fluffypony>
*change
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<bsm1175321>
Moving to a commodity-hardware friendly PoW creates an "external majority" that can easily be used to 51% attack the network. "My coin is secure as long as no one at a Google datacenter decides to reallocate idle CPU time..." It also reopens mining by virii and botnets.
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<zooko>
fluffypony: can you point me to docs about PoW-on-connect? Is this to make establishing p2p connections expensive to deter sybil attack on the p2p layer? Very cool.
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<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: yes, which is why we've eschewed it, but making such a change it Bitcoin would be close to impossible as those hierarchies are already established
<fluffypony>
zooko: correct - nothing formal drawn up yet, early days still
<fluffypony>
but if memory serves there's been some discussion of it with respects to Bitcoin, either on the Bitcoin Dev mailing list or on Bitcointalk, I forget where
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<bramc>
Hey everybody
<bramc>
bsm1175321: A merkle root is sort of a random access updatable hash