sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532> I'm adding a networking delay to my braids project. I'm thinking to use a fat-tailed Cauchy distribution. Does anyone have a better suggestion for modeling Bitcoin's block propagation?
<bsm117532> Also, for the record, the Cauchy distribution is also known as the Lorentz distribution and Breit-Wigner distribution, and is how we discover new particles in physics!
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<bsm117532> Numerics I've run so far indicate a 4.8s median propagation time (measured from the orphan rate).
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<maaku> bsm117532: you need more documentation about your braids project
<gmaxwell> bsm117532: in bitcoin? unfortunately many orphans are dark
<gmaxwell> mining equipment has rather high latency, often a block is orphaned by the time it is returned to its bitcoind
<gmaxwell> those orphans never relay
<gmaxwell> other ones might pass the first bitcoind but not make it far enough for you to observe them.
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<bsm117532> maaku: It's coming...
<bsm117532> gmaxwell: The idea is that the verification step is included in my calculation of latency, and miners wouldn't be punished for it.
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<PeterR> Bob: regarding which distribution to use for block propagation times, did you see the distributions in our Xthin article?
<PeterR> Lognormal fits the empirical data fairly well (although the tails were fatter than even lognormal).
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<PeterR> Note that we were measuring only a single "hop."
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<bsm1175321> PeterR thanks, lognormal is no surprise, I'll add it as an option. Also it's the one-hop distribution I need, and I will sample it on each hop.
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<katu_> what is this shit about GFW, do they really drop bitcoin connections?[1~
<katu_> to me the problem with china seems like their state telecoms dont peer with outside world[1;5C[1;5C
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<fluffypony> katu_: #bitcoin-dev
<kanzure> "Breaking symmetric cryptosystems using quantum period finding" https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05973
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<bavly> hey ?
<bavly> i need help please
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<Taek> don't ask to ask just ask
<PeterR> katu_: I'm not sure what the underlying mechanism is, but blocks propagate through the GFC significantly slower than across the normal P2P.
<PeterR> We present a bunch of pertinent data here:
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<katu_> PeterR: the mechanism is crap and expensive HK bandwidth
<katu_> because asia
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<bavly> i have a wallet on bitcoin core . and although i am sure that some one sent to my addres bitcoins they dont appear in balance or even pending
<PeterR> What I thought was interesting was that the GFC slowed down Xthin blocks by a smaller factor than it slowed down standard blocks.
<fluffypony> bavly: ask in #bitcoin, this is for discussing theoretical cryptocurrency ideas
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<katu_> PeterR: there are workarounds of course, like partitioning the blocks among many peers and let them bypass the narrow gullet
<PeterR> katu_: agreed. @thezerg is working on some similar ideas right now.
<katu_> PeterR: very good sample data is torrents with high chinese peer presence. each individual peer can push like 5kb/s internationally (even if it gets fttx speeds on mainland). but bittorrent overcomes it easily, it simply talks to 200 peers.
<katu_> anyhow, i'm not a big fan of hacks like that as they depend on highly diversified p2p network, which bitcoin sadly is not (compared to bittorrent).
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<katu_> i wonder what happened to blockheader-first and set reconcilation proposals
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<PeterR> Did you see the Xthin results I just linked? Xthin blocks made it through the GFC about 10 times faster than standard blocks.
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<katu_> PeterR: i cant read the log graph very well, whats the mean avg?
<katu_> my mean average latency from europe to most of china is 350ms, so it should be around that number.
<PeterR> 17.4 seconds (std. blocks) versus 1.8 seconds (Xthin)
<PeterR> It's what's shown in the first figure in the article.
<PeterR> The *median* time for Xthin through the GFC was 0.66 sec.
<PeterR> The mean is a lot longer than the median because of the ~lognormal distribution.
<katu_> thats pretty decent for a federated network
<PeterR> Thanks. We were quite pleased with the results.
<katu_> still, true bittorrent-like partitioning can get near true network latency provided you get sufficient amount of nodes on both sides
<PeterR> Agreed.
<katu_> (and i kinda like the idea of federated transport as an intermediary solution). though i'd organize your PR a bit differently.
<katu_> ie directly ask pools for small cut according to measured orphan rate you reduced
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<PeterR> Yes!
<PeterR> I was brainstorming ideas like this yesterday.
<PeterR> I think it could be made to work somehow...
<katu_> anyhow, gmaxwell apparently hates your guts
<katu_> so theres a chance core will be fixed to do something smarter than it currently does
<katu_> destroying your business model in the process
<katu_> its a risky enterprise :)
<katu_> (but ultimately with good outcome for bitcoin either way, so kudoz to you :)
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<PeterR> Haha the only pay off I'm looking for is the smile on my face when that first 1.1 MB block gets mined.
<katu_> wait, is this endeavor part of core/classic drama?
* katu_ had the impression both had the same slow blockprop
<PeterR> Xthin has been part of Bitcoin Unlimited since March and is now part of XT too.
<PeterR> There is an experimental branch of Classic that supports it, but the main Classic client does not (at the moment)
<katu_> oh, you do primitive set recon
<katu_> i thought you were merely a relay network
<katu_> PeterR: any plans for true IBF epstein set recon?
<katu_> i think it was
<yoleaux> katu_: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options.
<katu_> bah
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<PeterR> Personally, I think Xthin + subchains + optimistic mining (headers first) will give us all the scaling we need.
<katu_> personally, i trust gmaxwell on this, optimistic mining assumes everyone behaves rationally within bitcoin closed system
<katu_> but thats an assumption too weak
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<PeterR> But optimisitic mining results in a small profitability advantage for a miner. How do you stop them from doing it?
<instagibbs> katu_, I've become more pessimistic re:IBLT and the like
<instagibbs> obviously mempool sync is nice
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<instagibbs> Matt has a new relay network up and running which does UDP+FEC for latency reduction(plus gossip for mempool). Something like that seems to be the best bet.
<instagibbs> it's not p2p though, more work would be needed for that
<Taek> you can solve the optimistic mining problem by allowing conflicting transactions to appear in a block (and ignoring them). This breaks SPV, but there are some latency based methods of fixing it
<instagibbs> (you can't just relay data willy nilly, actually have to validate or get DoS banned)
<Taek> for example, in the coinbase transaction you could include the merkle root of all valid transaction in the block 3 blocks back
<instagibbs> Taek, I thought the DAG Days were over ;) another one
<Taek> I'm pretty convinced that a dag construction is superior in most ways
<PeterR> Still waiting to read Bob's paper :D
<Taek> and I'm also convinced that, if SPV is a blocking factor, there are simple ways to bring it back
<instagibbs> Taek, I do not believe a tree is the best thing, surely :)
<Taek> I am curious what your doubts are
<bsm1175321> SPV is straightforward if you can organize things into blocks from the DAG, that's what my "cohorts" are.
<instagibbs> tree meaning the chain we have now
<Taek> oh
<Taek> even if you are using a chain, you can still enable safe opportunistic mining without breaking SPV
<instagibbs> I think some sort of DAG like thing plus miners not being in charge of validation is best. But that's still, erm, unbaked
<Taek> you just add a few blocks of latency
<Taek> well, and it's a hardfork
<Taek> unless you do 'segregatedtransaction' :)
<katu_> instagibbs: simplest solution would be just to punish miners who intentionally break the network with selfish / "optimistic" mining. that way the dynamic system can be reduced to the most simple game theoretic model where everybody loses.
<katu_> and the incentive is to simply build robust relaying.
<katu_> sadly the punishment does not work that well in practice
<katu_> miners still mine on spv pools etc :/
<PeterR> katu_: I don't see optimisitic mining as a problem to be "solved" (I see it as a positive). What exactly are you worried about? That miners will stop validating *completely*?
<katu_> PeterR: remind me what optimistic means again. mining on top of a tip you didnt verify "optimistically" ?
<PeterR> It means you would start mining once you've received the block header and verified the PoW but before you've downloaded and verified all the transactions.
<katu_> it simply breaks core assumptions that double spenders cant hijack hashpower for their attempt, not even temporarily. it still effectively boosts hashpower of attempted doublespend.
<PeterR> You set a timer and STOP optimistic mining if you don't verify the complete block by the deadline
<katu_> yes.
<katu_> and that time period is hijacked hashpower
<katu_> the longer the deadline, the worse it gets. i agree that short deadlinse (<100ms) wouldnt matter much
<PeterR> Yes, that is a valid point. I'd like to see the math for this, however. I bet it comes out as insignificant for any reasonable optimistic-mining time period.
<katu_> but past second it starts to feel uncomfortable
<katu_> thats 1/600 of a big chinese pool for me, yay
<PeterR> I was thinking about 6 sec (1%).
<PeterR> But I don't have any math to back that up...just gut feel.
<PeterR> Maybe I'll try to analyze this properly....
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<katu_> PeterR: granted, this concerns 1-conf transactions for the most part, but might break some more complex assumptions (ie parasitic chains, contracts)
<PeterR> Yes.
<PeterR> Ok got to get back to work. Thanks for the chat!
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<nicolagreco> exit
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<nicolag> can anyone help me understand Async Common Subset?
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<midnightmagic> not really sure why rizun is welcome here given the fairly extreme provocation and promotion of cartoons of people being killed.
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<fluffypony> I felt it prudent to keep quiet, katu_ was doing just fine in defense of secure system design :-P
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<dgenr8> lognormal propagation is much simpler to work with than the alternatives i looked at. it's a bit hard to justify though - often it arises from a multiplicative sequence, and how does that model t(one network hop)?
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<dgenr8> katu_: optimistic miners build empty blocks, so no help to double spenders
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<bsm1175321> dgenr8: I have a network simulation for braids, latencies are calculated as distances on the surface of a sphere. I'm just inserting an additional delay drawn from a lognormal distribution to model the long-tails of real-world propagation.
<katu_> dgenr8: the offending transaction is already embedded in the block prior on which optimistic miners blindly mine on, thus lending him more hashpower.
<katu_> my assumption is they also blindly broadcast without waiting for the block to verify.
<katu_> (sadly i couldnt find concise description of what xthin actually _does_, thus i'm assuming the worst)
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<katu_> in case it witholds the block, attack surface is smaller, but still exists - winning hashes are semi-public for pools. it becomes non-technical debate whether or not individual miners would leak those, again, something im not entirely comfortable with.
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<PeterR> katu_: there's a diagram and a brief description of how Xthin works in Fig. 1 here:
<PeterR> And here is the original Xthin BUIP by Peter Tschipper:
<PeterR> Xthin is unrelated to optimistic mining.
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