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<nicolag>
I think it is to make sure that the system doesn't get stuck, so it can neutralize that message and move forward (in raft for example by using timeouts)
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<katu_>
nicolag: which protocol, paxos-like?
<nicolag>
katu_: I think in his presenation, he tries to generalize different concepts, saying that a consensus protocol that wants to agree on statements, need to have statements that must be irrefutable and neutralizable
<katu_>
im not too familiar with academic terms, just the actual implementations
<katu_>
to me there are two families, online and offline consensus
<nicolag>
(I am trying to understand his formal language too)
<katu_>
the only existing offline one is satoshi like pow consensus - theres nothing to neutralize. as for online consensus, these are pretty complex and yes, usually deal with neutralization
<katu_>
(well, PoS can be considered sort of offline too, sans its NaS weakness)
<katu_>
nah scratch that, PoS has to be always online, for returning node to guess correct tip.
<amiller>
gmaxwell, the nice thing about honeybadger is that it's only O(N) total communications per tranasction (only O(1) per node), even in the worst case
<amiller>
this doesn't really affect your point at all, but it was a big challenge to achieve that so i thought i'd point it out
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<gmaxwell>
amiller: I know.
<amiller>
ok
<gmaxwell>
amiller: Or unless you're saying something deeper than I beliefed. My understanding is that HB paper is O(N) per transaction because it uses FEC for broadcast, the consensus itself still requires N^2 messages it just doesn't grow with transactions. Using FEC to make broadcast more efficient is a known techique ('network coding', which we'd even tried for block relay previously), so I didn't cons
<gmaxwell>
ider that part of the HB result interesting.
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<nsh>
FEC?
<gmaxwell>
Forward error correction.
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<nsh>
ty
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<gmaxwell>
zooko: you should implement zerocash as an ethereum contract, I hear there might be a party willing to fund that work...
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<zooko>
gmaxwell: my first thought about that is that Ethereum needs an upgrade to add a ZK-verifier opcode.
<zooko>
gmaxwell: in any case, I'm not interested in committing Zcash Co resources to working on that at least until after we launch Zcash 1.0 "Sprout" and tend it through its infant phase,
<zooko>
but I'd be happy to encourage other people and hook up interested parties, so
<zooko>
please tell me more about who wants to fund it.
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<bramc>
What happened to BIP 9?
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<bramc>
hmm, looks like it just passed. Something I saw indicated it failed, which seemed weird. Apparently it was wrong.
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<gmaxwell>
zooko: the whole argument of their system is "it can already do everything!"
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<bramc>
gmaxwell: Pshaw, its support for covenants sucks
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<zooko>
gmaxwell: it's a performance issue. We can't implement SNARK prover in EVM because prohibitively expensive.
<zooko>
Oh wait, I mean verifier.
<zooko>
And actually, now that I say that, I'm not entirely sure that it is true!
<gmaxwell>
it would be insanely so.
<gmaxwell>
by comment earlier was mostly a joke about the dao theft, a million ether would pay for a lot of contract execution though.
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<bitjedi>
12:22 AM <zooko> please tell me more about who wants to fund it. <-- assuming TheDAO hacker wants the option of eth privacy layers like zksnarks, ringct, etc.... asap. has eth, will fund. lol.
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<nsh>
hi zooko :) please don't call your awesome cryptothings sprouts kthx
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<nicolag>
in order for stellar not to have two divergent statements being ratified by two different quorum slices, stellar needs to have these quorum slices to be interconnected, how do they guarantee that?
<kanzure>
http://why3.lri.fr/ "Why3 is a platform for deductive program verification. It provides a rich language for specification and programming, called WhyML, and relies on external theorem provers, both automated and interactive, to discharge verification conditions."
<bsm1175321>
It's basically a UTXO set commitment as-a-ledger, AFAICT...
<bsm1175321>
He's also tracking branches of the UTXO commitment Merkle tree which are empty. So his Merkle tree will have roughly twice as many leaves as there are outputs.
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<bsm1175321>
But, proofs of absence in the UTXO set follow in a straightforward manner....
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<nicolag>
oh thanks kanzure, will look into it
<Taek>
having multiple implementations means that softforks become more annoying to deal with, and hardforks become more dangerous
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<Taek>
I guess if you are doing a 2-of-3 and running 3 full nodes with different implementations it may make hardforks safer
<gmaxwell>
Taek: that doesn't make it safer; it just makes more than three times more resource intensive to run a node which will actually be consistent with the network.
<gmaxwell>
Both false acceptance and false rejection are bad and can be turned into monetary losses.
<Taek>
And I guess it's even more of an issue if there are like 5 or 6 implementations total and different people are chosing different ones for their set of 3
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<bramc>
Trying to make standards more reliable by having multiple implementations has a very poor track record
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<dgenr8>
consistency is very important, but is not the only desirable property. Taek surely means that having 6 implementations makes you resistant to bugs in any one of them.
<gmaxwell>
It can make you vulnerable to bugs in all of them.
<gmaxwell>
And divide the review and development resources thin enough to result in not one of them being correct.
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<Taek>
Consistency is significantly more important in a system like Bitcoin than in something like http
<Taek>
I understand the idea that differneces between implementations can help you find ways that each vary from the high-level spec, but differences are only detected if consistency breaks, which means consensus is threatened
<Taek>
and, the fact that you've divided resources may detract more than having two implementations helps
<gmaxwell>
There are other alternatives, for example-- one we used for the opus audio codec. We wrote a whole seperate compatible implementation (of just the decoder); tested heavily against it, then threw it out.
<gmaxwell>
(it wasn't thrown out ~entirely~ some new optimizations were discovered while it was being written and those went upstream eventually; but pretty much.)