sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<slackircbridge1> <dts> He's really trying to Orwell the SPV mining as "optimistic mining"
<slackircbridge1> <dts> What a total douche
<nsh> (personal comments are off-topic)
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<slackircbridge1> <dts> woah how did he see what I said
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<instagibbs> LOL
<instagibbs> why is the bridge 2 way? It's not supposed to be? btcdrak ?
<slackircbridge1> <instagibbs> test
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<instagibbs> guess it's not now nvm
<btcdrak> someone needs to +q the slackircbridge1 user
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<helo> be care with those smart contracts, folks ;)
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<jaromil> or maybe not, just have fun with it? I guess ethereum now can be considered a testnet
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<JackH> how did it ever get to 160 million dollars?
<JackH> that alone is INSANE, for non audited code just dumped in a chain that has very little auditing itself to begin with
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<kanzure> wrong channel, JackH
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<JackH> yeah I know....
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<Taek> kanzure: can you put all the links about the DAO vulnerability into a single folder?
<JackH> actually this is a bit relevant for Bitcoin, if anything, we can see the social side at play if they do a HF
<Taek> or at least give them a single tag. This stuff has a ton of educational value
<JackH> and if I am not wrong, SegWit + MAST will allow some smart contract possibilities
<kanzure> Taek: i wasn't going to bother tracking these.
<Taek> it's both a good example of playing with fire and how not to design a script system
<kanzure> Taek: i sort of assumed someone else would be keeping a timeline of links but now that i say it outloud i realize that's completely unlikely.
<JackH> you know we all look to you for links and files and pdf's kanzure
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<JackH> LOL
<JackH> if you dont agree, make a DAO replacement ;)
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<jaromil> this is from 3 days ago, but has been going on for 1-2 years now
<katu_> "bank" and "cloud" sound scary in same sentence
<jaromil> and there is a list of world class banks on the bandwagon, here it is, scroll down and read where the endorsements come from http://r3cev.com/press/2016/1/20/r3-brings-eleven-major-global-financial-institutions-together-on-a-cloud-based-distributed-ledger
<katu_> especially with weak paxos "blockchains" like HL
<jaromil> anyway its at least good that ethereum shielded Bitcoin short - mid and long term development from the hyped up banksters on ecstasy
<katu_> ?
<katu_> please keep it to tech in here :)
<jaromil> yep sry
<jaromil> let it be a warning against hype on tech, when it comes to audit better leave the shills out of the door
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<Taek> This makes me question the value of security audits generally with regards to cryptocurrency
<Taek> I suppose it's a bit like getting a security audit of your custom hashing function
<othe> damn hard to audit something like this without auditing the whole ethereum trainwreck
<fluffypony> except they DID audit Ethereum, othe
<fluffypony> same company
<othe> which ethereum?
<othe> the go one, the python one, the rust one, or the c++ one?
<fluffypony> looks like the Go one ony
<fluffypony> *only
<othe> not surprised, also not surprised they didn´t find everything
<fluffypony> to speak to your point, Taek, security audits in cryptocurrency are mostly a marketing exercise
<othe> would have to be ongoing anyway, or its kinda pointless
<katu_> unless the implementation is formally verifiable to a spec which itself can be proven
<katu_> to be fair, bitcoin has neither too
<katu_> i wonder if theres some academic research to that goal though, kanzure ? :)
<JackH> lol
<Taek> There are parts of Bitcoin which have been formally verified, at least to simplified assumptions
<Taek> for example, I'm pretty sure that sipa did some formal verification to prove that certain types of errors did not exist in libsecp256k1
<Taek> which is not fully equivalent to proving there are no bugs at all in libsecp256k1, but it shows that the tools exist, are being used, and in the future their use will probably become easier and more ubiquitious
<katu_> Taek: thats only algorithms in secp256k1, C implementation is pretty much impossible to model check
<gmaxwell> katu_: thats not true, on either point.
<gmaxwell> We formally verified some aspects of the C code used in the field arithemetic using frama C, and using formalizations of C (frama c, or the compcert COQ embedding) it's possible to check much more, though we haven't because it's a lot of difficult specialized work that none of the people working on it are experts in.
<bsm117532> This is one thing that annoys me about Ethereum. For smart contracts you *really* want formal verification. They instead went with an opaque bytecode and multiple front-end languages... :-/
<bsm117532> I'd have gone with Prolog or ML...
<katu_> gmaxwell: neat, so limited subset of C on reduced domains. thats pretty impressive. still, incomplete model :/
<katu_> bsm117532: agreed :(
<gmaxwell> katu_: the limited subset is the whole of the language we use.
<gmaxwell> (the formalizations don't support a few things, but those are things we don't use; (well when we started, compcert didn't do long long, but I'm pretty sure it does now))
<katu_> gmaxwell: im more surprised about the asm part correctness
<katu_> that theres tooling for that these days
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<jaromil> the problem is not cryptographical, but semantical / linguistic
<jaromil> there are limits to perfection which set me off from thinking there should really be a crypto-currency written in Coq
<jaromil> but at least some more literacy in implementing an actual language grammar should be there
<jaromil> and at the very least, contracts should be written in a language that is as functional, non-imperative and stateless as possible
<jaromil> IMHO
<jaromil> (anyway really to check Coq, interesting concept https://coq.inria.fr
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<nicolag> What prevents a miner to not accept a transaction of mine?
<gmaxwell> Nothing.
<gmaxwell> Hopefully you paid enough fee to make it attractive, and that that was enough.
<gmaxwell> and hopefully you preserved your privacy well enough that they can't tell your transaction apart from any other.
<nicolag> thanks gmaxwell
<fluffypony> nicolag: nothing prevents them, that's why there's more than 1 miner
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