sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<rusty2>
Um, I thought SHA256 wasn't vulnerable to length-extension attacks because it includes the bitcoin at the end (explicitly for this reason). Am I missing something?
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<kanzure>
s/bitcoin/?
<rusty>
kanzure: oops... yeah, two conversations at once, that got smerged. s/bitcoin/bitlength/. :) I guess you can still extend if that's valid data, though.
<bsm117532>
kanzure I thought this was exactly why satoshi used *double* sha256?
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<zooko>
rusty: that's "Merkle-Damgård strengthening" and it's not good enough to prevent length-extension attacks.
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<rusty>
zooko: you mean you can extend after the bitlength, right? I guess you'd need to prepend the length to make this work, and that has other issues.
<rusty>
bsm117532: I've heard that theory before, but don't understand it. Perhaps there was a concern that some future partial weakness in SHA could deconstruct the hash enough to weaken the PoW?
<katu_>
i can't readily imagine how. all you can do with le is append, which helps you add data to a commitment (typically secret in hmac-like construct)
<katu_>
theres nothing of the sorts in bitcoin afaik
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<Taek>
from what I've gathered, Satoshi was not an amazing cryptographer, he may have done that out of paranoia
<katu_>
well, his prudence did pay off, especially in relation to SAT mining
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<zooko>
Satoshi probably got it from Ferguson and Schneier's book "Practical Cryptography" / "Cryptography Engineering".
<katu_>
(ie simple means to double the number of rounds, without inventing non-standard hash function)
<zooko>
We also used that construction, which F&S named "SHA256d", in Tahoe-LAFS.
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<veleiro>
if I want to commit a message to the 420001 block (halving day), any opinions that it will be quite full of people wanting to do the same thing?
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<slackircbridge1>
<dts> the reason double sha hash was used was to prevent a birthday attack that impacted sha1
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<phantomcircuit>
rusty: remember that sha256d is used all over the place, not just in the PoW
<phantomcircuit>
i assume that it was done simply as a means of hardening other uses
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<kanzure>
proof-of-rule-validation could work by having an audit log created based on the computation of the rules over the data, and then you transfer the audit log around and query the audit log to check for various consistency details.
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<katu_>
i get the feeling this is "something else"
<katu_>
in which case you dont need op code at all.
<kvnn>
interesting
<kvnn>
I wish I was more helpful.
<kvnn>
This is above my pay grade, to be frank.
<katu_>
nah, more likely i've too poor understanding of sidechains :)
<katu_>
but my pedestrian idea is that an opcode would simply verify PoW proof according to sidechain rule, and would allow to create input "out of nothing" (up to the total of deposit "burned" into sidechain at any given time)
<katu_>
however there are other approaches, like PoS-like mining, where mining as such actually happens on bitcoin chain by miners proving their amounts in coinjoin-like txes, which is suspect is what you're suggesting?
<katu_>
i also see mentions of merged mining, at which point i'm completely lost :(
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<kvnn>
katu_ This is Paul Sztorc's project, who would know how to respond. I'll try and get you a good response as soon as possible (I'm going to spend a few hours on it when I'm more free, and then will git his input).
<vyvojar>
kvnn: my overall criticism - the description is too focused on technical implementation (which in, itself, is good), but the high level overview of _what_ actually allows the inward direction is muddled.
<vyvojar>
is it PoW? is it PoS-like? does it simply depend on miner decision on bitcoin chain to include specially formatted sidechain tx? it's too muddled :) thanks!
<bsm1175321>
|mcelrath@jane:~> git his input
<bsm1175321>
git: 'his' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
<bsm1175321>
Did you mean this?
<bsm1175321>
theirs
<kvnn>
vyvojar: thanks! will get back to you as well.
<vyvojar>
katu_: I think, but not sure either: it seems to be the last case (actual bitcoin miners side-mine the special OP_ according sidechain rules), thus casting their vote in merged-miner fashion.
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