#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-07-20 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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05:05 <amiller_> what is "first futurama projection"

05:10 <kanzure> it's a conspiracy theory about cryonics and brain damage used to explain fry's abundant mental illnesses

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06:58 <skang404> Can someone explain e.g.6 in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contract in other words please?

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09:05 <MaxSan_> Jeff Garzik in here?

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14:08 <JackH> how can the ethereum blockchain be sustained? If they have very quick block times and (from my limited understanding), no limits how can this ever scale?

14:08 <JackH> and yes this is a wizards topic for those that should ask

14:09 <tromp> they have dynamic block size limits that miners can vote on to slowly increase

14:09 <JackH> what is it currently?

14:10 <tromp> now that is off-topic:)

14:10 <JackH> heh

14:10 <tromp> dunno; go ask in eth channel

14:10 <JackH> but still, my main question is, how can this ever scale and be kept decentralized?

14:11 <JackH> I fail to understand

14:12 <helo> they swallowed down their big script burger with the big block koolaid

14:12 <instagibbs> JackH, you must assume miners incentives is aligned with yours

14:13 <JackH> well I am not really questioning incentives, and I get what you are saying...that if it becomes too popular and used its just going to grow to big and thats that

14:13 <JackH> right?

14:16 <pigeons> JackH: it can't. everyone knows it. their devs and users know it and think they will invent a new complexity to throw on top when the problem gets too bad. its old news.

14:17 <pigeons> and they have plenty of other challenges to deal with

14:17 <JackH> wait, so what is the purpose of it? if its own success is going to strangle it and it at best becomes some in-ram/grid processing system on a few servers then....

14:17 <helo> i think they believe that miners will keep the system within the capabilities of common setups

14:18 <pigeons> jack not really something to waste space here with

14:18 <JackH> I guess my high level question was - if they have a magic solution to this or not, but sounds like not

14:18 <tromp> yes, miners can also vote to slowly decrease the block size

14:19 <tromp> the philosophy seems to be "it will somehow work out in the end"

14:22 <funkenstein_> sounds familiar

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14:25 <funkenstein_> continue to fail to scale gracefully, etc.

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14:30 <bsm1175321> JackH: They have a plan to shard the blockchain

14:30 <JackH> well that will still only solve storing the blockchain

14:30 <JackH> what about block propagation ?

14:30 <bsm1175321> It works by basically making federations, your contract will have to run on one federation (subset of address or utxo space) an to call out to addresses in another federation it will cause extra ETH.

14:31 <bsm1175321> I expect widespread breakage and out-of-gas conditions on contracts. I don't think it's a workable idea..

14:31 <bsm1175321> https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/53

14:32 <tromp> Rootstock claims excellent scalability as well "using probabilistic verification and fraud proofs, as well as blockchain sharding techniques"

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14:35 <JackH> I wonder when Rootstock is out, would be nice to have it

14:35 <JackH> didnt they say Sep/Oct?

14:35 <tromp> see pages 23/24 of Rootstock whitepaper at https://uploads.strikinglycdn.com/files/90847694-70f0-4668-ba7f-dd0c6b0b00a1/RootstockWhitePaperv9-Overview.pdf

14:39 <pigeons> oh are these "blockchain sharding techniques" published?

14:40 <bsm1175321> pigeons: I know of none besides the one I linked.

14:40 <pigeons> its more of the same, we'll fix it with something that can't work but trust us it will

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14:42 <bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about Zcash's proofs. I think there may be a way to use a non-ZK analog to shard the blockchain. That is, if you have some kind of commitment to a New-TXO and another commitment to a Spent-TXO or possibly an Unspent-TXO comitment, you could attach such proofs directly to transactions.

14:42 <bsm1175321> I've brought up this idea before, I think petertodd has too. The complaint is that the size of the proofs is (# outputs)*log(n) and is generally larger than the transaction itself.

14:43 <bsm1175321> That said, I think the advantage to decentralization may outweigh this complaint, and I want to try it anyway...

14:44 <JackH> I can see people eventually in Ethereum wont care about the decentralization aspect, and just because everyone is super hyped it will end up like a datacenter chain

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