sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
I think that ETC sets a good precedent for what happens when you have a hostile relationship between two blockchains on the same PoW where one is very strongly a minority
<Taek>
There's been a lot of threatening, but thus far nothing significant has happened.
<Taek>
Will be interesting to watch the events unfold over the next 6-18 months
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<r0ach>
aka rough consensus attack o_O
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<bsm1175321>
ETC is educating the masses about what a hard fork really *means*. Frankly I love it. The bitcoin camp have been largely theoretical in this discussion of soft vs. hard. What the ETC fork is demonstrating is that a pure, selfish, parasitic profit motive causes the minority fork to survive. This is a market dynamic I've never seen discussed in Bitcoin fork conversations.
<bsm1175321>
The Bitcoinistas at the helm and Blockstream frankly have done a great job of orchestrating soft forks (which I think is the right model). A vocal minority advocating hard forks are being educated.
<bsm1175321>
The minority fork does not *need* technical merit to survive.
<othe>
i think its hilarious not to force upgrades from time to time , it´s like not updating your OS for years, i frankly can´t understand what the fuzz is about of doing a hardfork, it´s not like softforks fix any of the real issues (third party libs need to be updated etc...)
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<bsm1175321>
othe: List for me the versions of software you use on a daily basis, and how often you check whether there's an upgrade for them.
<r0ach>
bob, most people think stolfi is out of his mind, but he does have a point about soft forks in that people who do nothing are subjected to them, whereas changing anything related to network consensus should likely require and active vote
<bsm1175321>
The fact is, people NEVER upgrade their shit unless the shit hits the fan.
<r0ach>
*an
<othe>
must be windows users
<othe>
they should not run financial infrastructure in general
<bsm1175321>
othe: Even Windows has moved to an auto-update model. Now certify to me that the updates are authentic...
<othe>
whats the point of that question? i have to trust the repositories on that, obviously, still i accept every update they offer me
<bsm1175321>
r0ach: oh jeez. This explains some Ledger submissions.
<bsm1175321>
othe: Windows crashtastic updates occur faster than Bitcoin updates, trust model not withstanding.
<othe>
i still dont get your point, theres no issue to upgrade bitcoin twice or so per year for everyone who really wants to run a full node
<bsm1175321>
othe: I run a business which needs a full node. I set it up, push GO, and walk away. Let's call it SatoshiDice for example.
<r0ach>
the issue is developers are scared to death of rough consensus attack
<bsm1175321>
othe: The expectation that people will upgrade their software is not encoded in software, law, license agreement, or any other tangible form. People don't upgrade their software. Unless things are on fire.
<bsm1175321>
Therefore, hard forks fail.
<kanzure>
arguably if there was an auto-update mechanism then bitcoin would be jeaopardized anyway because it's essentially telling people "here have some money in payment for your goods and services, and also the software will be automaticlaly changed out from under you anyway"
<othe>
thats why we force them too, xmr stops working if u are on too old software, if they cant handle that they shouldnt base a business around it, i guess.
<bsm1175321>
othe: Define "force".
<bsm1175321>
Is it easier to set my clock back than upgrade?
<othe>
it tells you to upgrade
<othe>
no that wont work.
<bsm1175321>
I'll set my clock back if that's easier, and ignore the error message.
<othe>
fine but it still wont work
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: it's probably checking a remote url for version status
<othe>
no...
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: othe is probably not someone who believes in long-term software archiving :)
<bsm1175321>
centralization is the answer.
<othe>
no kanzure, theres a good german saying about this, means stagnation is actually going backwards, and not sure why this is "centralized" people still choose which software to run and might as well just stay on the old fork
<bsm1175321>
I don't want to attribute beliefs to anyone. othe has made interesting contributions to -wizards conversations in the past.
<othe>
how else would we get sth like ringct in? without a hardfork?... and its better those are sheduled for the users, there will always be improvements
<bsm1175321>
othe: The problem is that people never consciously choose. They choose by default and by neglect, most of the time.
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: you can attribute beliefs to someone regardless of whether they have made contributions. i don't understand the connection. wtf?
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: Just trying to disarm a potentially judgemental misunderstood statement, that's all. I think both you and othe have interesting opinions and don't want this to dive off the deep end.
<kanzure>
othe: i'm not sure there any good ways to get ring confidential transactions into bitcoin, although i'm still pestering adam3us to finally write that bip
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: i have no idea what you are talking about, you have taken a tangent i think
<bsm1175321>
Hey I'm working on braids. When I find a way to soft fork that I'll tell you, but I'm not holding out hope.
<othe>
my beliefs are, privacy is the most important thing on the internet, as someone grown up in a divided germany half occupied by russia; and well stuff like ringct needs an hardfork, so would be bsm1175321 braid stuff or tromps cuckoo pow... u can however continue to interpret whatever u want into my words
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: that's the point. Anyway back to the subject at hand.
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<kanzure>
othe: is that in reply to my comments about xmr?
<bsm1175321>
othe: There are a lot of important things. Privacy is one of them. Engineering occurs one step at a time though. ;-)
<r0ach>
I think by stating that a cryptocurrency requires permanent development you are undermining the validity of cryptocurrency in the first place. It's different to say, we *might* have to implement some fix to prevent shors and grovers from raping the chain, but to say you can have no permanent solution after that just makes the whole thing invalid.
<bsm1175321>
We're having a talk next week about amiller's Hawk, I'm excited to see what he has to say. Have you guys read that paper?
<othe>
well r0ach and i on the other hand believe that none of the current crypto currency projects will be around in 100 years if they dont evolve, people will just jump to whatever better comes out.
<kanzure>
"don't evolve" seems to be code for "hard-fork"
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<othe>
if u want to interpret it that way
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<bsm1175321>
kanzure: I interpret the other way "you don't evolve" is synonymous with soft-fork. But I prefer to put it another way: "we assume the majority is not paying attention" is synonymous with soft-fork. I think this is a reasonable assumption, demonstrated many times over.
<bsm1175321>
Again, I fucking love the education the community is currently getting on forking with ETH vs ETC. Humans default to a "fungibility" assumption which is not valid in the case of a hard fork.
<bsm1175321>
(because: I have one beer. Wait I have two beers?!?! No I have one. WTF are you talking about?)
<r0ach>
eth is more complex because people selling on one chain were actually losing coins on another too, so it's kind of an outlier there haha
<bsm1175321>
r0ach: only because of replay attacks! (insert education here)
<othe>
eth didnt bother to upgrade the tx version now u can broadcast ur tx on both chains etc... thats just fucking amateur work and should not even need a discussion here
<bsm1175321>
othe: agreed
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<fluffypony>
[06:10:16] <bsm1175321>othe: I run a business which needs a full node. I set it up, push GO, and walk away. Let's call it SatoshiDice for example. <- the problem with this is that older versions of Bitcoin have had very serious exploits (eg. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51604.0). You *have to* keep updated if you're running a service, lest you expose yourself to risk that you could mitigate by updating regularly.
<fluffypony>
and, in my humble opinion which I know some people disagree with, older clients should be forced to upgrade for their own protection
<fluffypony>
there's nothing "wrong" with the approach that Bitcoin takes, and in time I'm certain the approach Monero takes might cause explosions we can't predict or know, so there is value in having both approaches at least to provide experience and learning
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<r0ach>
*you're not supposed to tell investors the currency is going to explode
<fluffypony>
that's why I keep dissuading investors, then I can talk about explosions all I want :)
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<Eliel_>
fluffypony: If you ask me, the consensus code should be codified as code for a virtual machine with a very strict spec and the other parts of the framework would be an interpreter for this code along with the network handling stuff. Every block should contain reference to the consensus program it expects to be used to verify it.
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<Eliel_>
preferably a declarative language. Written in a way that simultaneously specifies tests as well as functional parameters.
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<instagibbs>
there are additional advantages in softforks that even if you're running some set-and-forget core system, you can(and should be) using another node as a border router. The border one can get updated with new ruleset.
<instagibbs>
it's a smoother ramp for upgrades, if nothing else
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<bsm1175321>
fluffypony: I agree with you of course. I'm not proscribing a desired course of action, only stating that humans, by default, are lazy, and you can depend on that.
<othe>
thats why u should kick old insecure nodes offline, good that we agree on that :P
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<fluffypony>
Eliel_: that's an interesting idea
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<fluffypony>
re-architecting this at some point in a few years when we have additional hindsight might be well worth it
<Eliel_>
fluffypony: yes, it's nice that you could potentially port the current bitcoin consensus code to work with that system. Even if the difficulty level is similar to rewriting the system.
<fluffypony>
yup
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<Eliel_>
fluffypony: the nice part of such a system is that it'd make it possible to soft or even hard fork without a need for node operators to upgrade. It'd just be the virtual machine code that gets upgraded. It could also automatically detect forks as those will involve a change in the consensuscode reference.
<Eliel_>
umm automatically detect hard forks that is
<fluffypony>
yes exactly
<Eliel_>
that'd leave only security fixes as important fixes for the interpreter layer.
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