sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
fluffypony is not banning bot is banning
<gmaxwell>
hahahahahahha
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<Pydude>
Is there a very good book or website that will teach me more than just basics of bitcoin like safest practices and how to setup wallets and protect private keys and such?
<sipa>
#bitcoin
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<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, thinking past segwit (script versioning is supposed to make more complex soft forks easier, right?), do you see a Confidential Transactions softfork a reality? If so in what time frame?
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<stevenroose>
s/reality/possibility
<sipa>
stevenroose: unfortunately, segwit script versioning doesn't help us for deploying CT, as CT is not a script change
<stevenroose>
oh yeah right
<stevenroose>
it changes amount values
<stevenroose>
stupid me
<sipa>
and it is certainly technically doable as a softfork, but it would require some sort of extension block mechanism, with all its downsides
<sipa>
not impossible, as it's just a constant factor (for bandwidth, cpu, and utxo set size)
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<Eliel_>
wouldn't something like mimblewimble work better for that purpose?
<sipa>
sure, except mimblewimble (at least of you want its scaling advantages) very fundamentally different from how bitcoin works
<Eliel_>
I was wondering yesterday if that'd be soft forkable in as an extension block.
<sipa>
sure
<sipa>
but it would really be a totally independent system
<stevenroose>
it's possible as a sidechain, right?
<sipa>
who cares
<Eliel_>
It'd have the nice property that you could eventually prune everything that happened in a mimblewimble "space" as all that remains would be witness data.
<andytoshi>
stevenroose: yes, if sidechains are possible then a mw sidechain is possible
<stevenroose>
sipa, well, considering we have yet to see a sidechain mechanism that might actually work in a distributed way, but if so, a dual system with MW and Bitcoin seems pretty ok.. AFAIK, MW doesn't have full scripting, so the original chain keeps having value
<stevenroose>
while most value-transferring transactions and lightning channels will probably better live in the MW sidechain
<kanzure>
the independence of an extension block system has been insufficiently elaborated on-- if you have a system where you require all the bitcoin nodes to validate everything (preserving the current security properties) then it's basically a bandwidth requirement increase, and if you have only miners attesting to a hash of the state of some other system, then you might as well have non-pow atte...
<kanzure>
...station (like just multisig authorization e.g. like any multisig escrow into an off-chain ledger) anyway.
<stevenroose>
it'd be similar to an extension block system though
<sipa>
stevenroose: until we have full sidechain validation through snarks, i don't think sidechains help at all
<sipa>
stevenroose: they're a means for experimenting with new technology without introducing a new currency first
<kanzure>
i thought the slowness of the proof generators are the problems with snarks, not the validation?
<sipa>
but they don't result on a security model that i think is acceptable
<sipa>
for production usage
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<kanzure>
right, and with many of these security model reductions, you could easily argue for equivalent security of e.g. just multisig escrow fund lock to off-chain ledger which will look eerily similar to extension block or sidechain or whatever-- in the sense that not all the bitcoin nodes are participating in the immense bandwidth requirement increase.
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<kanzure>
partioning a network and having high-performance only in one particular bubble-universe is not a particularly impressive magic trick
<sipa>
extension blocks don't suffer from the sidechain security reduction, but they bring their own problems (need network wide enforcement and all costs it brings)
<kanzure>
yes but didn't the recent extension block proposals propose not to have network-wide enforcement? thereby being self-defeating..
<sipa>
no clue
<kanzure>
it was like optional inclusion of an extra commitment
<kanzure>
and nodes don't follow along (it's a separate system)
<sipa>
well, no clue
<sipa>
stevenroose: as a conservative estimate, CT would be a 15-30x bandwidth increase, 1.5x-2x UTXO size increase, 30x-60x cpu increase
<stevenroose>
a bitcoin hardfork is getting increasingly tempting lately
<sipa>
for the same transaction volume
<sipa>
i don't see why
<stevenroose>
sipa, that's with 100% CT, right?
<sipa>
of course
<sipa>
but if it isn't 100% or close, you might as well not do it
<stevenroose>
sipa, because every innovation being proposed requires jumping through 100 hoops to get in included as a soft fork
<sipa>
huh
<sipa>
i disagree
<sipa>
if we knew of a way to do CT in a way that wasn't so expensive, i would suggsst doing it as an extension block
<andytoshi>
stevenroose: there are waay more hoops to jump through for a hardfork, the required upgrades are by definition a superset of those required for a sf
<adlai>
stevenroose: the whole point of those hoops is that technological progress should not undo the ethical progress made by an opt-in system
<adlai>
hard forks are quite equivalent to majority tyranny
<sipa>
the only advantage a HF CT has over a EB SF CT is that you wouldn't have a delay when moving from the CT side to the normal side
<stevenroose>
andytoshi, adlai, I totally agree with that, but the extra technological difficulty for deployments are a problem
<sipa>
stevenroose: i think the technical problems are purely scaling
<sipa>
which we really don't have an answer for
<adlai>
sipa: wouldn't there also be constant factors in performance? (making the HF version more efficient)
<sipa>
the rest is enginrering
<stevenroose>
implementing or understanding bitcoin from scratch gets increasingly more impossible
<sipa>
adlai: i don't think so
<adlai>
neat
<adlai>
i guess yes, it falls under engineering
<stevenroose>
usage of the coinbase outputs, the coinbase input script bloat, separate data locations for EBs or witness data
<sipa>
stevenroose: meh
<sipa>
stevenroose: have you ever read a technical spec?
<sipa>
try reading the spec for h264 video codec
<sipa>
or ASN.1
<stevenroose>
sipa, it is meh, indeed :p it's not critical, but it's tempting to remove all the built-up bloat
<stevenroose>
all I'm saying
<stevenroose>
haha, I tried ASN.1
<sipa>
stevenroose: i think the bloat is insignificant to other parts of the system
<stevenroose>
the native Golang implementation of ASN.1 doesn't support several of the data types (like bit strings and OPTIONS). and it only does DER & BER
<andytoshi>
stevenroose: the position of some commitment in a merkle tree is really not that interesting, there are a million "ugly" things in bitcoin that are uglier and many of them require actual thought to understand the consequences of
<stevenroose>
andytoshi, like? (curious)
<kanzure>
like how to avoid overt asicboost interference
<bsm117532>
stevenroose: or look at all the bloat in the x86 processor instruction set. Yeah, it's ugly as sin. But it has utterly defeated all the hard-fork (RISC) architectures because of the very serious advantage of backwards-compatibility.
<sipa>
or how to design a cache that has good performance for block validation, but deals correctly with the case of pre-BIP30 tx overwriting
* bsm117532
bemoans the end of the ALPHA line of processors...
<andytoshi>
stevenroose: the format of numbers in bitcoin script, say. quadratic hashing. the eccentric behaviour of the sighash flags. the weird encoding of the difficulty (and consequently weird set of representable values). the time-warp attack. hash trees that are potentially malleable (but accidentally aren't because they hash data that itself already hash collision-resistant hashes in it). etc etc etc
<sipa>
or how to design an efficient algorithm for constructing blocks from a mempool that gets close to best fee ince while supporting CPFP, without massively slowing down in a reorg
<sipa>
how to design fast block relay protocols that don't require trusted network identities
<sipa>
ok, andytoshi's examples are better
<stevenroose>
:)
<sipa>
mine are more design challenges going forward
<sipa>
though perhaps we should include the unsolved problems in this list
<stevenroose>
they're more implementation-oriented than protocol
<sipa>
yes, but implementations do need fast relay on a network scale, or propagation delay in the network may suffer
<sipa>
and do need efficient verification for similar reasons
<sipa>
and so on
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