sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<MaxSan>
block 459962 0x20000004
<MaxSan>
what is that?
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<bsm1175321>
I think this discussion is evidence that decentralization has utterly failed. A handful of people are having a power war over the rules Bitcoin runs by, and most of us don't have any say.
<bsm1175321>
Maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board...
<bsm1175321>
An idea I've always liked is what I call "mining at the edges" aka transaction-level mining, where all mining occurs at the bottom of the Merkle tree, instead of at the top.
<bsm1175321>
It's easy enough to add the difficulty attached to mined leaves of the Merkle tree, and compute the effective difficulty for the Merkle root.
<bsm1175321>
One way to do that is that *instead* of paying fees, your txn must be accompanied by a certain amount of work on a mined hash.
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<bsm1175321>
People would outsource that service to get their txns accepted, but the value of the outsourcing would *solely* be the hash itself and not (necessarily) the network rules or any decision about chain consensus.
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<bsm1175321>
The txn submitter would decide the network rules and how/when/where it gets submitted to the network. Imagine miners as service providers to whom I provide my transaction, and they return it to me with a PoW hash.
<gmaxwell>
because you know progress and fastest wins all are totally not concerns?
<bsm1175321>
It's totally straightforward to hide the network data from the miner -- I just provide them an opaque hash which they grind against a nonce to get the PoW. I don't give them the entire transaction, or even the network it's on.
<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: see my work on braids. Merging blocks with non-conflicting transactions is fairly trivial. I think this solves the progress and fastest-wins concern.
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<bramc>
Hey everybody. I posted about the TXO bitfield idea to bitcoin-dev but disappointingly it hasn't gotten any response so far
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<kanzure>
probably because everyone unsubscribed from the mailing list
<bsm1175321>
bramc: either it's a good idea, or you sent it on a Friday night :-P
<bsm1175321>
bramc: I've thought quite a bit about txns which come with proofs about their inputs. Problem is that the proofs are much larger than the txn itself...
<bsm1175321>
That said, there are such serious advantages to such an approach that I think it's worth serious consideration.
<bsm1175321>
In particular, I'm interested in "sharding" -- such that a node can keep a defined subset of the blockchain data, which could be enabled by such an approach.
* bsm1175321
reads bramc's email again.
<bramc>
Sharding sucks
<bsm1175321>
A simple RLL encoding would let you compactly indicate you've dropped the first 8 years of history too...
<bsm1175321>
bramc: why?
<bramc>
Because it causes individual nodes to not be able to validate or upload the whole history
<bsm1175321>
IMHO it's the only way forward for scaling. Everyone having everything does not scale.
<bramc>
You can make everyone have everything when the amount of 'everything' is under control
<bsm1175321>
We made progress on algorithms not by banging on O(n) things but by moving to log(n) and O(1)...
<bsm1175321>
ZKP's are an existence proof that O(n) things can be proven in O(1) space.
<bsm1175321>
We just need better algorithms...
<bramc>
There's plenty of scaling possibility which can be done using simple techniques, like the bitfield proposal I made yesterday :-P
<bsm1175321>
I like it, and it's compatible with sharding :-P
<bsm1175321>
bramc: "Because it causes individual nodes to not be able to validate or upload the whole history" -- I'd rather depend on economic incentives for keeping history, than for deciding consensus...
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<bsm1175321>
Frankly I'd run a full-history node. Any serious business would.
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<punindented>
without miner consensus (would never happen), aren't sidechains the only viable solution to tx upgrades?
<punindented>
UASF, PoWA, etc will end up creating the eth/etc situation
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<Eliel>
sidechains, at least ones with trustless 2way peg to bitcoin, require support from miners too.
<Eliel>
I'm not quite sure why they'd allow features in sidechains that they refuse to let into the mainchain
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<punindented>
why not a one way sidechain
<punindented>
who wants back when segwit chain is in any sense superior
<Eliel>
one way sidechain is not that different from an indepent altcoin.
<Eliel>
the main difference is that it can't become more valuable than bitcoin as long as there are coins left in bitcoin that can be transferred over.
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<punindented>
one way sidechain is still secured by the hashrate of the parent chain isn't it?
<Eliel>
that requires miner cooperation
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<punindented>
how so?
<Eliel>
well, miners provide the hashrate, no?
<punindented>
but they use it to find regular bitcoin blocks like always
<Eliel>
yes, and they're the ones who decide what goes in the block.
<punindented>
fees don't decide that?
<Eliel>
nope, miners are perfectly able to ignore the fees if they choose to
<punindented>
I mean, with enough incentive some miner will collaborate
<punindented>
it doesn't matter if is just the 30% of them
<punindented>
in fact, that's why we have no miner consensus, due incentives
<Eliel>
if the majority are uncooperative, they might choose to 51% attack the cooperating miners by rejecting their block.
<punindented>
if they do, then we're free to implement segwit as a hardfork
<punindented>
one way or another we get segwit, but is amazing that there's no plan for the case when we don't hardfork and miners never reach consensus
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<Eliel>
it might be possible to trick them into mining a sidechain if build the system such that the commitment looks like a regular bitcoin transaction and only publish the block data once that's mined.
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<Eliel>
but that seems somewhat hairy to implement
<punindented>
honestly, that's incredibly wasteful for the parent chain
<Eliel>
although, I suppose one way pegged sidechain would be somewhat preferable to a fullblown altcoin... assuming users migrating to another chain is the eventual solution market chooses.
<punindented>
we should be in the clear, and expect around 30% of miner collaboration
<Eliel>
one way pegged sidechain at least won't end up with lots of bagholders being left with worthless coins
<punindented>
and we can plan a full migration process, with new pow or pos
<punindented>
if that's convenient, if not, then just use parent chain to secure the child chain forever
<bsm1175321>
someone was signaling for CSV yesterday (which already activated)
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<wasi>
f2pool was signaling for everything as an aprils fools joke.
<wasi>
f2p wasn't the only pool signaling useless stuff yesterday if i remember correctly
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<wasi>
Eliel, prunindented: if bu (with or without 8mb) goes to 50% some miners might be that stupid to try to fork but will quickly realize that they will not be on the longest chain for long because that'll lead to all kind of forks because some might accept 8mb blocks, some only 2mb blocks and so on. just sit and wait it out if something like this happens. the original chain will stay the strongest because the forkers will not come to consensus
<Eliel>
well, as long as economically important nodes don't run BU, it doesn't much matter if they try to mine bigger blocks.
<bsm1175321>
"economically important" nodes are probably dominated by exchanges, and they have an incentive to sell both sides of the fork. ETC became ETC mostly because Poloneix decided to list it...
<Eliel>
even exchanges will only list it if they think there's a market with enough volume to justify adding it.
<wasi>
you realize that every node has it's own block size limit (based on technical limitations). bu would lead to unlimited forks. which would be bu's demise.
<Eliel>
wasi: yes, that's why I don't think a real attempt to mine bigger blocks will ever happen with BU.
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<wasi>
thanks jesus (not bitcoin jesus though ;))
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<wasi>
i'm glad we're on the same page here. i'm so confused that so many people (noobs, even if they are around for years like ver himself) would disagree with your last statement here.
<wasi>
neither clasic nor xt had such a big crowd as far as i remember. it's annoying as f*
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<kanzure>
i wonder if full reorg handling (up to any depth) for the entire ecosystem (aka unlikely to ever happen) would push hard-fork safety up enough for me to agree with the concept..
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<punindented>
to me is more about BU blocking segwit instead of mining invalid blocks
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<kanzure>
Taek: instead of a list of inputs/pubkeys for the block structure with "mostly just a single merkle root", what about two aggregate signatures, one for spends and one for unspents. and all utxo holders must either be online or they must delegate their signing capability. miners would have to check that they have all signatures from all spenders and *all* holders before they finalize the b...
<kanzure>
...lock contents.
<kanzure>
as a receiver your job to validate is: if the spender does not give me a merkle inclusion proof for block N (a proof of spending), then did his signature appear in the unspents aggregate signature?
<kanzure>
as a validator (not necessarily a miner), you can check some random set of pubkeys you know about and construct a proof of invalidity if there's a signature missing, i think...
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<kanzure>
"In this paper, we formalize and implement a variant of multi-signature schemes, Accountable-Subgroup Multisignatures (ASM). In essence, ASM schemes enable any subgroup, S, of a given group, G, of potential signers, to sign efficiently a message M so that the signature provably reveals the identities of the signers in S to any verifier. [...] The signature length is the same as for the singl...
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<kanzure>
...e-signer Schnorr scheme, regardless of the number of signers."
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<kanzure>
oh the key generation routine requires all potential signers to participate :(
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: this scheme is effectively the same one we propose, but it is not private. and doesn't really have size equal to that of a single signature (all pubkey are revealed to all verifiers)
<gmaxwell>
they use an interactive scheme for delinearization which is what requires that all-potential-signers key setup.
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<kanzure>
i keep forgetting why i need an accumulator for my wishlist..... if you can get a yes/no on whether someone participated in the construction of a signature, then you have a membership and non-membership proof, right?
<kanzure>
in my scenario you only know one pubkey that may have created a signature that became aggregated into an aggregate signature, you do not have the other pubkeys, and there's only one message