sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
"and all utxo holders must either be online or they must delegate"
<Taek>
That's too heavy of a requirement imo
<Taek>
way too risky, what happens if you get DoS'd before you can delegate?
<Taek>
Also, with accumulators, I'm pretty sure that you can only get a proof-of-non-membership if it is given to you by someone who knows all of the members of the signature
<Taek>
Has there been any work on a PoW algorithm that is simpler than existing hashing algorithms?
<Taek>
I know there's been a ton of work on ASIC resistance, but I'm wondering if anyone has put serious time into ASIC acceptance (or whatever the other side of the fence is called)
<bsm1175321>
It's hard to imagine something simpler. Those chips are seriously constrained by thermodynamics.
<bsm1175321>
"simpler" would lead to higher power density...
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<Taek>
Why? cryptographic hash functions need to have collision resistance, but PoW algorithms do not
<bsm1175321>
And you don't actually want that, they're too high power density already.
<Taek>
further, collision resistance is pretty much the thing that always breaks, implying that it's much harder to achieve
<Taek>
if you don't need it, perhaps you can simplify the algorithm / circuits
<bsm1175321>
Taek: with sha256d it's already way too easy to make the feature size so small that you can't dissipate the heat...
<Taek>
also, SHA256, etc. have non-obvious optimizations when griding for a partial preimage
<sipa>
and still sha256d has very nontrivial optimizations
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<sipa>
but i think a solution for that is just first expand the input data using something like xorshift before hashing
<sipa>
which is not necessarily simplifying it
<bsm1175321>
Anyone have any experience with miners using advanced thermal solutions? (liquid cooling, immersion, etc?) Anyone doing that?
<Taek>
BitFury has some pretty advanced stuff they are doing
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<Taek>
is the thermal issue something you could solve with a more creative algorithm? I thought that was just inherent to tiny transistors
<Taek>
and also, anything you design that changes how you might approach buildling an ASIC for the algorithm is more likely to have nontrivial breakthroughs later
<bsm1175321>
Taek: you can make an algorithm generate less heat by slowing it down, generally, and having idle silicon lying around...
<bsm1175321>
The memory-hard algorithms for instance should generate a lot less heat, because most of the memory is idle most of the time.
<Taek>
I feel like any time you have idle silicon, your optimization expert is going to try and find a way to make it not-idle
<sipa>
yup
<Taek>
much better to have something where the entire board is operating at 100% the entire time
<sipa>
run two instances of the problem in parallel, with a phase shift
<bsm1175321>
Taek: you literally can't do that with modern feature sizes on modern CMOS silicon. You will melt it.
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<Taek>
if you are melting the board you've pushed it past 100% lol
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<ygerald>
andytoshi, Could CA work on bitcoin mainnet?
<andytoshi>
ygerald: as well as CT could
<andytoshi>
not really, it would increase the verification load too much
<sipa>
it would also be very much incentive incompatible with bitcoin
<sipa>
supporting competing currencies, while making bitcoin nodes do the work...
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<andytoshi>
ygerald: it is entirely compatible with mimblewimble (incentive questions notwithstanding)
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<warren>
ygerald: elements includes the sidechain peg mechanism which enables bitcoin to transact on parallel networks. I hope that Bitcoin can become more valuable as both the fuel and unit of account for many networks.
<warren>
other networks with CA, or MW
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<waxwing>
shibuya station? is that where mark used to buy them?
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