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<yoleaux> [bitcoin-dev] Deploying CT in Bitcoin without extension blocks?
<oleganza> Not sure if bitcoin-dev is a good place for that, but it was too long to post in #bitcoin-wizards.
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<kallewoof> tromp__: I somehow confused the edge count. Thanks for pointing it out, updated the BIP.
<tromp> kallewoof: can u remind me of URL? i'll look it over again...
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<tromp> sizeshift doesn't need 4 bytes. 1 byte obviously suffices:)
<tromp> same for proofsize
<tromp> you could also make that halfproofsize
<tromp> allowing up to length 510 cycles
<kallewoof> Hm.. I agree sizeshift should be 1 byte but proofsize could just stay at 4 for simplicity, no?
<tromp> if you want to be extremely flexible, then you could go up to 2 bytes
<tromp> but 4 bytes is way overkill
<kallewoof> Fair enough..
<kallewoof> So, sizeshift 1 byte, proofsize 2 bytes
<tromp> yes, both unsigned of course
<kallewoof> *nod*
<tromp> your sizeshift is alrd limited by edges being 32 bit
<tromp> that means you cannot handle sizeshift > 33
<kallewoof> Because I'm using uint32's?
<tromp> yes
<kallewoof> Should I switch to uint64's?
<tromp> only if you can imagine requiring many minutes of time per proof attempt, or dozens of GB of memory use
<kallewoof> Feels like it's taking a lot of space already. That switch would double the proof size. I think it's like 180 bytes now
<kallewoof> Yeah, I think we can make that a separate pow id when that day comes.
<kallewoof> Or fix the code to deal when sizeshift > 33
<tromp> with 1 byte halfproofsize, the smallest proof you cannot handle is 510*4 = 2040 bytes
<kallewoof> Right now shiftsize / proofsize are #defined and unchangable. I obviously want to change that but I wanted to keep the imported code as close to the original as possible initially.
<tromp> i think only a real consensus PoW would need sizeshift > 33
<kallewoof> s/shiftsize/sizeshift
<tromp> it's *way* too much work for any rate limiting purposes, even many decades from now
<kallewoof> Yeah, I am keeping the values way too low as it is to keep things feasible. I would like to optimize to be able to raise the sizeshift / memory requirements.
<tromp> is there something like a varint array?
<tromp> edges should only be larger than uint32 if sizeshift is more than 33
<kallewoof> for (int i = 0; i < 42; i++) varint[i] = deserialize(...);
<kallewoof> ^ like that, you mean?
<tromp> i mean the size encoding is done only once for all 42 values
<kallewoof> Ahh. If that's the case you could just put in a 1 byte size parameter at the beginning and then spew the values, no?
<kallewoof> e.g. \0x02 [uint16] [uint16] ...
<tromp> well the edge size is implied by sizeshift alrd
<tromp> what zcash did is actually encode proof as n*k bits, for n indices each of which fits in k bits
<tromp> that is most compact, but takes some more effort to (de)serialize
<kallewoof> Yeah... ideally this should be easy to do for anyone.
<kallewoof> I will check out the zcash method though
<tromp> with fixed proofsize, there is a lot of variance in #attempts needed
<kallewoof> Yeah, I've noticed.
<tromp> which is not that desirable for rate limiting purposes
<tromp> there is a simple way to avoid that
<tromp> allow a range of proofsizes
<kallewoof> Ahh.. right.
<tromp> e.g. any size from 34 to 64
<kallewoof> I think that is definitely the way to go. :)
<tromp> yes, the single size was really picked with consensus pow in mind
<tromp> it's good to be picky there
<kallewoof> Right. Would it be a useful idea to use the range as a way to tune difficulty? I.e. a node under high pressure might shrink the range. Right now the approach is SHA256(cuckoo-cycle()) < target where target is tuned
<tromp> yes, it can be used as a rough difficulty control. it's just not as precise as what hashcash allows
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<tromp> and the range of difficulties would be a priori limited
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<kallewoof> *nods* Well, that's nice. Ideally I would like the CC version to be relatively speedy but require lots of RAM. I'll play around with a proofsize range and see what I can find.
<tromp> e.g. from lowest difficulty [12,254] to highest difficulty [254,254]
<kallewoof> Why 254 as max?
<tromp> still have 1 byte encoding in mind:)
<kallewoof> Oh. Wouldn't it be 255 though?
<tromp> also, you don't want proofs larger than 1 KB
<tromp> cycle lengthb always even
<kallewoof> oh right.
<tromp> those ranges are about a factor 200x in diffculty apart
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<tromp> if you need a wider range, then sha256 check on top seems necessary
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<kallewoof> I think the standard approach will be SHA256(CC) but I could be wrong. It's up to the nodes. Or should be, anyway. (Right now it's hard coded.)
<tromp> well, of course yhou can also increase size for extra difficulty
<kallewoof> I made an attempt at making sizeshift variable but ran into some issues. Can't remember what, now, but that should be done, ideally.
<tromp> did you rewrite cuckoo cycle to allow hex headers?
<tromp> or do your test vectors happen to be ASCII?
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<kallewoof> I am just shoving binary data into it.
<kallewoof> No rewrites. It seems to work fine, though?
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<tromp> you test with cuckoo.c ?
<kallewoof> Reference implementation here: https://github.com/kallewoof/bitcoin/pull/2
<kallewoof> I am using cuckoo_miner.h and cuckoo.h, mostly unmodified.
<tromp> from which code do you run your testvectors?
<kallewoof> I am not actually running those test vectors in the code right now. I pulled them directly out of a peer-to-peer challenge/solution interaction as someone wanted test vectors. I intend to add them to the tests. There is one test using arbitrary data in pow_cuckoo_cycle_tests.cpp right now.
<tromp> i see
<tromp> ok; looking forward to see your bip gain traction. let me know if you have any more cuckoo cycle questions
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<kallewoof> Thanks, I will!
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<yoleaux> [bitcoin-dev] Deploying CT in Bitcoin without extension blocks?
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