#bitcoin-wizards on 2017-03-13 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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14:41 <musalbas> do we get any integrity with respect to the contents of the chain in mimblewimble?

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14:42 <musalbas> cc amiller

14:43 <kanzure> musalbas: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/mimblewimble-andytoshi-draft-2016-10-20.pdf

14:43 <kanzure> musalbas: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2016-11-21-mimblewimble/

14:44 <musalbas> kanzure, we looked at that but it doesn't answer the question

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14:45 <amiller> you're better off with cc andytoshi :) (i'm interested too, but haven't been following mimblewimble deeply enough)

14:45 <musalbas> what if a miner includes a transaction that wasn't actually signed by the signer?

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15:57 <tromp_> then the block fails verification

15:59 <musalbas> so from a privacy standpoint we're not severing the link between senders and recipients?

16:00 <tromp_> a block will have only 2 txs; the coinbase plus all other tx combined into one

16:02 <musalbas> but you can't verify that the txs have correct signatures from "all the other tx combined into one"?

16:02 <tromp_> you dont know which sender corresponds to which recipient unless you monitor original tx relays

16:02 <musalbas> so you need all the sigs to verify that a block is valid no?

16:03 <tromp_> the combined tx comess with a set of signed kernels all of which you check

16:05 <tromp_> did you read the original MW proposal?

16:06 <tromp_> yes, you need all the kernel sigs

16:06 <tromp_> and also check that all inputs were in UTXO

16:07 <fluffypony> are we talking about the trusted / federated aggregator model?

16:07 <fluffypony> or just MW as-is?

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16:14 <tromp_> either one

16:22 <tromp_> aggregators just make it harder to recover original (pre-combined) tx

16:23 <fluffypony> ye

16:23 <fluffypony> unless the aggregators are Sybil attacked, assuming some sort of federated aggregators model

16:28 <tromp_> i dont know what you mean by federated. aggregators are just delayed combining relayers

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16:48 <fluffypony> yes but how does a user select an aggregator?

16:48 <fluffypony> either they use a trusted aggregator

16:48 <fluffypony> or there's some group of volunteer aggregators and they select one at random

16:49 <fluffypony> or there's <insert model that fluffypony hasn't thought about>

16:51 <tromp_> they probably select at random weighted by trust worthiness. the most they risk is revealing their inputs-outputs link

16:51 <tromp_> they can also submit directly to randomly picked mining pool

16:52 <tromp_> if willing to incur extra delay of that pool finding a block

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18:27 <instagibbs> if you're willing to have delay you could also do a ValueShuffle

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18:40 <tromp_> MW alrd includes the notion of confidential transactions that sets ValueShuffle apart

18:48 <instagibbs> I think there's a spectrum of solutions along privacy<->latency/interactivity axis

18:48 <bsm1175322> To achieve privacy you need a large anonymity set, which means high latency...

18:49 <tromp_> i see the ValueShuffle paper claims input-output unlikability even against the aggregating parties

18:49 <bsm1175322> It's a continuous parameter interpolating privacy...

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18:52 <instagibbs> you can gather that anon set lazily, which is the big win

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22:51 <JackH> do we have any information about quadratic hashing on signatures? and how one would be able to create a tx that would take 1m or more to verify?

22:52 <JackH> In essence, doubling the size of a transaction increases can double both the number of signature operations, and the amount of data that has to be hashed for each of those signatures to be verified <-- because that does not make sense

22:52 <JackH> it makes it sound that there is an upper limit to each tx, but that the problem with tx's are that more can be included, which does not really account for that it scales non linear

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22:56 <JackH> no wizards?

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