sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi>
is an atomic swap primitive sufficient to have a federated peg? (where the federation is trusted in both directions vs elements where the sidechain has consensus rules about pegins)
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<andytoshi>
both parties send to 2-of-2 outputs locktimed 200/300 blocks in the future, after 100 blocks the federation starts the swap
<Chris_Stewart_5>
andytoshi: I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work off of the top of my head
<Chris_Stewart_5>
Seems to be the same security model
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
andytoshi: Why would the federation need to wait to start the swap? Couldn't we do it in the next block?
<andytoshi>
Chris_Stewart_5: because the federation is at risk of its coins getting reorged out
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
andytoshi: Ok, now do you need a federation? Or can you just offer an ICO style thing were people offer to be a liquidity provider for the sidechain
<bsm117532>
Because libsecp256k1 is faster, isn't it? ;-)
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<fluffypony>
X25519 all the things
<fluffypony>
inb4 PoS mandated by law: "[Parliament] Notes that some implementations of DLT technology such as the Bitcoin blockchain have extremely energy intensive computational requirements and that, therefore, research should be encouraged to find ways of mining and verification that are energy efficient, especially for large scale uses."
<sipa>
bsm117532: it's similar in speed
<bsm117532>
Your coin is exactly as secure as the economic input being used to secure it. You can't magically get security against someone who is willing to bribe former key holders or systems administrators. IOW this blahblah about energy intensiveness is garbage. That's WHY bitcoin is secure.
<waxwing>
is there a non-bitcoin.com link perchance? :)
<gmaxwell>
use archive.is in those cases.
<bsm117532>
*facepalm*
<bsm117532>
People will learn this lesson slowly and painfully.
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: when comparing highly optimized implementations.. if you can use the endomorphism, which will be clear of possible patent concerns in a couple years. (though most users of 25519 don't use highly optimized implementations, because thy're a PITA to use, undocumented, etc)
<gmaxwell>
secp256k1 is also moderately easier to deal with due to the cofactor of 1.
<fluffypony>
every time so speaks I think it's a bot
<bsm117532>
It's so a bot.
* so
could a bot do this?
<fluffypony>
a highly advanced one could
<fluffypony>
probably powered by Enterprise Ethereum
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<so>
Enterprise NaCl
<waxwing>
quite confusing that NaCl is also used for google 'native client'
<so>
that's misdirection
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<fluffypony>
lol
<fluffypony>
Enterprise SUPERCOP
<fluffypony>
SUPERCOrPorate
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<kanzure>
should my r and s values always be the same given the same inputs to be signed?
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<sipa>
kanzure: in what system?
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<kanzure>
secp256k1, bitcoin stuff
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<andytoshi-web>
if you use the same R with same key and same message, youll get the same s. if you use same R and get a different s youre in big trouble. this will occur if anything youre signing changes
<JackH>
I dont know why, but this PoW sounds super cool to me! The fact its memory based is really sweet. No advantage to anyone
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<kanzure>
JackH: read the logs.
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<JackH>
hmm october 12th is last time it was discussed
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<sipa>
i believe MW uses it as PoW
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<JackH>
yeah thats how I ended up on the github repo for it
<sipa>
im not convinced that being memory based on itself is such a nice feature
<JackH>
doesnt seem like anyone claimed those bounties yet for the speed optimization
<JackH>
how come?
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<sipa>
EquiHash is also memory based, but has permitted massive non-trivial optimization
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<JackH>
this PoW seems rather simple though
<sipa>
yes, that's a good feature :)
<sipa>
but i'd be more confortablr with a simple CPU based one
<sipa>
s/CPU/computation/
<JackH>
CPU meaning non-ASIC CPU bound or just CPU based like sha
<phantomcircuit>
JackH, the issue with memory bound pow functions is that memory bandwidth is limited by the connector
<sipa>
they're the same thing
<phantomcircuit>
so if you can get dram with a small amount of custom logic
<phantomcircuit>
you can get something significantly faster
<phantomcircuit>
and that's something with even less public access than an ASIC
<TD-Linux>
a HBM-based ASIC would be killer for this
<JackH>
HBM?
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<TD-Linux>
dram flip-chipped onto a carrier with the cpu
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<phantomcircuit>
TD-Linux, yeah something like that
<TD-Linux>
if not a custom dram solution.. that would be very difficult but a huge payoff
<TD-Linux>
building fast logic on a dram process is pretty hard
<phantomcircuit>
TD-Linux, the thing is access to modern dram fabs is basically impossible
<TD-Linux>
yup. if someone managed it, it would be guaranteed monopoly
<andytoshi-web>
cuckoo is bound by mem latency vs equihash which is bound by bandwidth
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<bsm117532>
bandwidth is parallelizable. Latency is likely to remain constant for a long time to come.
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: TD-Linux just pointed out one example of why it isn't.
<gmaxwell>
esp with TSV, you basically just have the dram plopped right on top of the logic with an ultra fast crazy bandwidth interconnect.
<bsm117532>
I'm just saying that latency is a measure of physical distance, and there are fundamental physical limits there. Bandwidth has no such limit...
<sipa>
of course, if you double the amount of chips/surface area/power usage/material, you'll get double the hashrate
<sipa>
that's not what PoW is trying to prevent
<sipa>
it is trying to prevent non-trivial optimizations that are only available to some parties
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<mappum>
Has there been any work on PoW algorithms bottlenecked by something like disk throughput or latency?
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<tromp_>
the altpow would need to be solved first, and encoded in the coinbase, before the sha256 on the header can be solved
<tromp_>
although ayou could enforce that some fraction of coinbase is paid to altpow solver, the sha256 miners will generally be separate from the altpow solvers
<tromp_>
so the sha256 miners still have the final say?!
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<mappum>
but sha256 miners would just use a header+altpow solution solved by someone else, so the altpow miners choose which txs are getting committed in the block, right?
<tromp_>
no, if altpow solution ends up in coinbase, it affects tx merkle root, so altpow cannot commit to tx selection
<tromp_>
altpow can only commit to more static fields, like prevblockhash
<kanzure>
you could have it commit to everything except however it ends up in the final block, and make it a rule to check its value against whole transaction set minus whatever
<mappum>
^
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<tromp_>
hmm, i'm a little ignorant on this.... does segwit witness data end up affecting merkle tree root?
<kanzure>
"Having a trusted timestamping party reveal discrete logarithms of pre-chosen points every $interval, and conditioning transactions on knowledge of these discrete logs."
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<tromp_>
kanazure,gmaxwell: ok, so there are ways to let altpow commit to tx tree... taking choice away from sha256 miners
<tromp_>
there's another problem i see though
<tromp_>
altpow would need its own difficulty targetting
<tromp_>
but there's no reliable data on how much time was spent on altpow vs time spent on sha256
<tromp_>
timestamps are too unreliable on scale of single blocks, and over 2016 blocks you only see how much time was spent on both together?!
<tromp_>
that doesn't address the proble. sure you have semi-accurate stats over 50-100 blocks; but you still dont know how it was shared between altpow and sha256
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<phantomcircuit>
"Decoders MUST accept both uppercase and lowercase strings, but not mixed case."
<phantomcircuit>
why?
<gmaxwell>
Why not mixed case?
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<gmaxwell>
Because it's an extra way that a user can make an error which can be trivally detected. E.g. sometimes the upper case of one character looks like the lower case of a different character.
<sipa>
the chance of accepting arbitrary text as an address is massively lower if you reject mixed case
<tromp_>
it's even lower if you require alternate letters to be upper and lower:-)
<phantomcircuit>
ok
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<parazyd>
in
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<gmaxwell>
tromp_: yes, but the likelyhood of users jumping off buildings is much more likely with that requirement. :P
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