sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: there is a seperate parameter for incoming and outgoing connections.
<bsm1175321>
Hmmm...I've been thinking about an adaptive analysis. e.g. if you have no other traffic, that one txn you sent must have come from you, no matter the delay.
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, what was the prior behavior?
<sipa>
bsm1175321: it's fixed; 0.2Hz for outbound peers, and 0.1Hz for inbound (i love using appropriate units)
<stevenroose>
btcd seems to have a trickle ticker on which to send a peer all outstanding inv items
<bsm1175321>
That's on par with network latencies...
<stevenroose>
which is kind of random delays since these tickers are started at different times
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose: yea, and does it actually work? previously in core the ticker ticked at the rate of network messages, effectively.. so you could just ping a node a bunch and empty its queue.
<sipa>
stevenroose: prior behaviour was relay every transaction immediately to 1/4th randomly selected peers, and queue up the rest (in order), until a tick passes... and with unrelated network refactors that tick could be made to happen instantly
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, every peer has it's own ticker
<bsm1175321>
Mixing networks also depend on a certain amount of junk traffic, to hide legitimate traffic.
<stevenroose>
so it's not just wait a random time and then push to all (or all other 3/4th apparently)
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose: does it then send all the transactions in the same order they came in?
<stevenroose>
you mean if it scrambles the queue?
<bsm1175321>
If each message had an independent timer, it would effectively scramble it...
<sipa>
bsm1175321: unfortunately, that breaks tx dependencies
<bsm1175321>
ugh. true.
<sipa>
core sorts the transactions by feerate and dependency order
<sipa>
within each batch
<stevenroose>
bsm1175321, messages don't have timers, peers have
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, it doesn't seem to scramble the queue order
<gmaxwell>
yea...
<stevenroose>
but that's a trivial change, I might do that
<bsm1175321>
sipa: that could be overcome by having a "limbo" tx pool, waiting on missing inputs...
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose: it's not totally trivial because of dependencies.
<bsm1175321>
But it's trivial for an attacker to flood that pool...
<gmaxwell>
damn man
<sipa>
bsm1175321: dude
<sipa>
bsm1175321: bitcoin has had that since 2009
<bsm1175321>
Uh...so why not randomize the outgoing order again?
<sipa>
randomizing is not better than sorting deterministically
<sipa>
in terms of information
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, you mean that nodes handle txs in incoming inventories in arriving order?
<sipa>
bsm1175321: and relying on the orphan pool (as the limbo tx pool is called) severaly hurts propagation
<bsm1175321>
These ideas increase privacy at the expense of propagation...
<stevenroose>
so that if two txs in the queue happen to be dependent, the receiving peer will reject one
<sipa>
the current solution does not, i believe
<sipa>
it sorts first in dependency order, then by feerate, then by txid
<sipa>
that completely hides the ordering information to the extent possible
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<stevenroose>
sipa, that's neat
<stevenroose>
sipa, if I understood correctly, core does that with a queue that is held globally for all peers?
<sipa>
stevenroose: no, per peer
<sipa>
there are poission distributed ticks for tx relay, that fire independently for each peer
<stevenroose>
oh yeah, prior behavior
<gmaxwell>
outbound sending has always been per peer.
<sipa>
whenever a tick happens, the set of unrelayed transactions for that peer is sorted occording to the rules above, and sent out
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose btcd just reimplemented the old behavior (maybe +/- queue drain bug)
<stevenroose>
sipa, gmaxwell, any chance you could point me to the code where core does the queue sorting?
<stevenroose>
Does a node have an (obvious) way to distinguish a peer going offline or being banned?
<stevenroose>
I guess trying a reconnect might be a way to find out, depends though
<gmaxwell>
Not afaik.
<sipa>
you're likely to get a reject message, i think
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<stevenroose>
Supposing nodes don't occasionally randomly disconnect (which actually might not be a very bad idea..), I'm thinking that I might run a pure-listen bitcoind node next to my btcd node and monitor how often a peer disconnects from the btcd node while staying connected to bitcoind
<stevenroose>
But now I'm off so bed. Great appreciation to you guys being here on IRC answering questions while you obviously all have a lot of work breathing down your necks!
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<vitor32>
helllo
<vitor32>
Can someone give me 1 dollar ??? PLEASE HELP ME 14rThNDi2VPnqXamviHVDDnw1ND4vTZMA6
<vitor32>
Can someone give me 1 dollar ??? PLEASE HELP ME 14rThNDi2VPnqXamviHVDDnw1ND4vTZMA6
<fluffypony>
vitor32: no.
<vitor32>
plz
<vitor32>
help me
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<rabidus>
poor brazil :(
<rabidus>
that would indeed need some wizarding to send dollars to bitcoin blockchain
<vitor32>
Can someone give me 1 dollar ??? PLEASE HELP ME 14rThNDi2VPnqXamviHVDDnw1ND4vTZMA6
<vitor32>
pleaseeee
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<vitor32>
can help me
<fluffypony>
vitor32: ask in #bitcoin, everyone here is poor
<vitor32>
Can someone give me 1 dollar ??? PLEASE HELP ME 14rThNDi2VPnqXamviHVDDnw1ND4vTZMA6
<thrmo>
sorry, my dollar wallet is not working as of late
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<vitor32>
Can someone give me 1 dollar ??? PLEASE HELP ME 14rThNDi2VPnqXamviHVDDnw1ND4vTZMA6
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<fluffypony>
luke-jr: plz fix ^^
<parazyd>
thrmo: lol
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<Cory>
gmaxwell: Heh, I just happened to attend a talk by Giulia Fanti today (on Dandelion). Funny catching her paper in recent scrollback here.
<Cory>
stevenroose, maybe you'd be interested in that paper too (stronger p2p network anonymity). In dandelion spreading, transactions are stochastically broadcast to just one peer for a while before being broadcast normally ("diffusion").
<gmaxwell>
Cory: ah.. a prior patch I wrote had send transactions preferrentially to two peers first, but it garnished no little/no review.
<fluffypony>
someone's suggesting BFT as an alternative to PoW, it appears they mean Tendermint - has anything been written up on it (ala andytoshi's PoS writeup) ?
<gmaxwell>
Cory: the relay process in bitcoin has many more considerations than privacy (in fact, we've generally regarded the lack of strong privacy as uncurable in this general design and recommend users announce txn over tor)
<fluffypony>
besides the old-ish -wizards log where adam3us discusses it
<gmaxwell>
Cory: a lot of the conserations in the relay behavior is around efficiency. See for example this line-propagation proposal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377345.0 (second half of the post).
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<mappum>
fluffypony: where can i find andytoshi's PoS writeup?