sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure> "Constructing cryptographic hash functions from fixed-key blockciphers" https://www.iacr.org/archive/crypto2008/51570433/51570433.pdf
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<sipa> Alanius: hey
<Alanius> sipa: message received
<kanzure> was that the uasf activation codesequence?
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<yoleaux> Ask HN: Current Crypto Best Practices | Hacker News
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<oleganza> "Better Bitcoin Confidential Transactions using short Range Proofs", next Monday at Stanford.
<kanzure> stream?
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<waxwing> looks interesting oleganza :)
<oleganza> my wild guess is that it'll be based on pairings :)
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<kanzure> thanks for streamlink
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<Taek> "Reverse engineering of a particular mining chip has demonstrated conclusively that ASICBOOST has been implemented in hardware."
<Taek> if segwit breaks that hardware optimization, it would explain resistance to move to segwit
<oleganza> "Had there been awareness of exploitation of this attack an effort would have been made to avoid incompatibility-- simply to separate concerns. But the best methods of implementing the covert attack are significantly incompatible with virtually any method of extending Bitcoin's transaction capabilities;"
<gmaxwell> oleganza: was that hard to read? I think if we knew there were this concern we would have tried to engineer around it (while seperately other people would probably have written BIPs to go block the attack). So as to avoid foolishness like people arguing against segwit because they just wanted to preserve their ability to boost.
<oleganza> i'm just highlighting the point you make. Do you say that even if you knew about that attack, it'd be a huge PITA to engineer around it?
<oleganza> i understand and support the "separation of concerns" argument
<oleganza> i'm worried that miners won't be too excited to obsolete their machines too early or too sharply on the flag date.
<oleganza> (Amazing investigation, by the way, gmaxwell!)
<kanzure> the attack details were known, not known was whether the covert method was implemented
<kanzure> (because it's, you know, covert and such.)
<oleganza> kanzure: got it.
<gmaxwell> oleganza: yea, part of what I spent the last month doing is trying to figure out how to engineer around it.
<gmaxwell> I do not believe any machine (even by parties using asicboost) would be obsoleted.
<gmaxwell> oleganza: I don't think there is any way to engineer around it that doesn't add non-trivial amount of complexity and technical debt. Which means there is no way I could propose it without spelling out exactly what it is trying to accomidate, which then people would oppose because boosting is bad news for Bitcoin's future if held privately.
<oleganza> yup
<oleganza> won't this BIP mean ASICBOOST users lose their 30% advantage?
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<gmaxwell> oleganza: yes. Well: (1) they could mine empty blocks, or (2) they could use the version bits modifying form. (I believe it is very likely that any hardware which can do the root griding form can also do the version modifying form).
<gmaxwell> Of course, the first loses transaction fees, and both are very obvious, which would fuel efforts to block the further use, or licensing from the patent holders.
<oleganza> when you say "coinbase MUST either contain a BIP-141 segwit commitment or a correct WTXID commitment with ID 0xaa21a9ef" do you mean a WTXID for the empty block?
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<oleganza> by 0xaa21a9ef do you mean 0xaa21a9ef0000000000000...0000 where all-zero hash is the witness root of the empty block? I'm confused on what's the difference between the two allowed commitments.
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<oleganza> Ouch, that's for the non-segwit miners: "Non-segwit miners can become compatible by simply including an additional output matching a default commitment value returned as part of getblocktemplate."
<oleganza> question withdrawn
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