sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
One thing I think that works not so well about bitcoin today is that you don't discount for future fees when you receive money
<Taek>
for example, it's completely useless to me if you pay me 1 btc in all dust outputs
<Taek>
I'll never be able to spend that
<Taek>
It might make sense to start discounting the utxos when you receive them
<Taek>
As that will give you a more realistic view of what your balance actually is
<Guest12838>
Taek, sounds like a UX nightmare. I can see it being reasonable to show a max spendable balance with fees deducted from the 'real' balance when you first think of it. But as fee rates change, imagine a user seeing his/her bitcoin balance fluctuate up and down unless that becomes the norm.
<Guest12838>
Unless that's the norm, most would freak out ha*
<Taek>
It's already a ux nightmare on the other end though
<Taek>
you get posts like "I had to pay $35 in fees to spend $60"
<Taek>
You couldn't just adjust a user's visible balance as the fee market changed though, that would never be comfortable for a normal user
<Taek>
Maybe you could have some field like 'Fee debt' that estimated the amount of fees you'd have to spend to spend all of your money
<Taek>
It's a lot more relevant for people variable sized payments
<Taek>
like exchanges
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<Taek>
*people accepting variable sized payments
<Guest12838>
Taek, the fee debt changes with time, though.
<Taek>
I imagine that'd be less frustrating than seeing your actual displayed balance change though
<Guest12838>
I can't imagine fees triple or something, and a user will have the same problem but just having to pay more than what their 'fee debt' portion originally said :P
<Guest12838>
can*
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<Taek>
that's true, but it happens anyway. In one scenario the user knows what's happening though, and in the other they are just blindsided by the fees and go 'wtf'
<Guest12838>
Well for those spending most of it. I guess it would slightly better for smaller payments not spending a huge chunk of the balance.
<Guest12838>
Either way it's wtf
<Taek>
but at least one lets you see that it's a bad idea to receive small payments
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<Guest12838>
Taek, lol, just imagine when 2nd layer systems start being the norm onchain balance, off chain LN balance, off chain spendable LN balance(nodes online and there being a routes out), and fee balance. rip
<Taek>
Off chain spendable balance hopefully only becomes relevant if you are trying to spend it all at once
<Taek>
but yeah, the complexity starts to add up
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<vega4>
I've just looked on safecoin.... the world went crazy.... poeple funding millions of USD into a project with no proven secucity, with a white paper which looks like an advert or article from from a popular magazine.we all should have been very very reach by now
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<vega4>
I see so many problems in the way some of the functions they claim that it just works there's no documentation. nothing. just big words
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<vega4>
and people fund millions of USD isnt that funny?
<andytoshi>
i think a lot of ICO investment is people trying to launder money. it's hard to make sense of it otherwise
<vega4>
Ive been working for a looong time recently on incentivizing data transmit; and they just clame it works. and by reading some short phrazes...I found that the reward is based on a random lottery xd
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<gmaxwell>
andytoshi: also piles of premined altcoins that you can't just sell without moving the market price down, but they're burning a hole in your pocket, so you 'invest' in ICOs.
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<gmaxwell>
Based on some comments I heard, I suspect part of it is tax evasion too...
<gmaxwell>
basically just doing the same cycle as money laundering but with reversed purpose. (legitimately gained earnings which are documented as yours, get lost to a losing ICO, while an anonymous identity wins in another ICO).
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<marcoagner>
fun fact: I was when an EF developer told AFK that "Ethereum already showed to be a great case for raising money through ICOs" when inquiried about its utility and real use cases. -.- (don't ask me names, though... don't wanna be an asshole)
<marcoagner>
*was present
<marcoagner>
sad truth: I think he actually believes it to be long-term valuable
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<nicolagreco>
I just saw a video online where amiller buys beef jerky for 0.91 bitcoin "just about 15 dollars"
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