sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
kristofferR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
skeuomorf has quit [Excess Flood]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
way2esc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
way2esc has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit []
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
molz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nightwolf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Nightwolf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
heffer2k02 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
anon616 has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
anon616 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
K1NGREX has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryan-c has quit [Quit: quitting]
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
anon616 has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
anon616 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
TheSeven has quit [Disconnected by services]
[7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nanotube has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
wasi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wasi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nanotube has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fletom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
harrymm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
harrymm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
oleganza has quit [Quit: oleganza]
MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest4461 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dispel has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
contrapumpkin has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<Eliel> hmmh... I think adding a Proof of Stake component to mining could be done as a soft fork with a BIP9-like activation procedure and even better, it would be an UASF soft fork where miners don't really have an effective veto.
<Eliel> After that, the PoS components could be used to measure fork acceptance among holders too rather than just miners
<Eliel> for example, you could pick 5 random bitcoin holders for each block and require a signature from each of them for a block to be valid.
<Eliel> it could also function as a method for UASF style soft-forks in the future
<Eliel> you could roll such an update out to users and have them start signing blocks and only active the actual validity rules when most blocks have been ending up receiving valid signatures for a difficulty period.
<Eliel> if miners go on a strike, that could perhaps be pre-empted with a PoW algorithm change and/or difficulty reset if we don't see enough block for a while right after the activation.
contrapumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dispel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mappum has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
King_Rex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
CubicEarthh has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
meZee has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.2 - http://znc.in]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
meZee has joined #bitcoin-wizards
heffer2k02 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
venzen_ has quit [Quit: financial independence: http://cryptocurrents.net]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
itsme_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
str4d has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
thrmo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
edvorg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thrmo_ is now known as thrmo
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
itsme_ has quit [Quit: My Mac Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Dark_Angel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
itsme_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Guest4461 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ryan-c has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryan-c has quit [K-Lined]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Samdney has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryan-c has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CocoBTC has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321> Proof of Steak is a circular argument and leads to centralization. Since there are no longer any economic inputs to the system (coin creation is inflationary), the only way to make money is by taking Steak from others, and the net assets are flowing from holders to steakers.
<bsm1175321> This has been argued to death and I don't want to see it ever in Bitcoin.
kristofferR has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
kristofferR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
danrobinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jcorgan> In addition, one of the problems with the idea of "it's been to long since a block, let's reset difficulty lower" is that it makes it near trivial for a sybil attacker to make your node accept its alternative chain
<jcorgan> *too long
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danrobinson has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
danrobinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
contrapumpkin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
licnep has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
CocoBTC has quit [Quit: Leaving]
contrapumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
contrapumpkin has quit [Client Quit]
keebler has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
contrapumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
contrapumpkin has quit [Client Quit]
contrapumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarthh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
keebler has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vega4 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
comboy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
onabreak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
markus-k_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
comboy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
parazyd has left #bitcoin-wizards ["nuked."]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
CubicEarthh has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
itsme_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
itsme_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rockhouse has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
danrobinson has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
onabreak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rockhouse has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rockhouse has quit [Changing host]
rockhouse has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Eliel> bsm1175321: that article only argues, correctly, that Proof of Stake alone won't work. That doesn't, however, address what I was suggesting, which is a combination of PoW and PoS.
<Eliel> jcorgan: the difficulty reset would naturally be only active for a limited time after the activation of the new validity rules.
<sipa> Eliel: i have never seen a viable scheme to combine the two that under adverserial conditions doesn't degrade to purely PoW
<Eliel> sipa: I don't see how that'd be a problem for what I was proposing.
<sipa> i mean that i have never seen anything that accomplishes anything that PoW alone does not
<Eliel> what I proposed would accomplish a method of signaling that involves holders as well as miners.
<sipa> and what if miners disagree with holders?
<Eliel> then I'd expect it's interpreted as if they had quit mining.
<sipa> then why do you have miners at all?
<Eliel> because, you need PoW for long term integrity.
<sipa> PoW is useless if it can be ignored
<Eliel> it'll still be required for validity
<sipa> but you say that holders can overrule miners
sipa has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
<Eliel> yes, if there's an overwhelming consensus that they should be overruled... although, looks like he left.
<gmaxwell> if that works securely, why do you need miners?
<Eliel> it won't work securely in the long term.
<Eliel> hence the need for PoW
<Eliel> anyway, given sufficient consensus, holders can overrule miners even now. They just need a working way to measure consensus that's secure long enough that it can't practically be attacked.
<Eliel> What I'm proposing is just making it explicit
<kanzure> "On the impossibility of supersized machines" https://philpapers.org/rec/GAROTI-3
<Eliel> The security of Bitcoin is dependant on non-mining nodes also validating the blocks. This is currently only done implicitly. What I'm proposing would merely add some explicit "I agree that this block is valid" statements from randomly selected holders.
<gmaxwell> Eliel: so what happens if these holders make inconsistent claims?
<Eliel> then the block is not valid and next block will have a different list of randomly selected holders.
<Eliel> alternatively, you could randomly pick something like 10 holders and allow for some of them to be missing
<bsm1175321> It's bad enough that Satoshi gave us "economic game theory" as a consensus mechanism. It's not nearly as solid as more traditional algorithms like PAXOS. The solution is not to add more rules -- it just creates a more complex game that is more difficult to analyze.
<bsm1175321> But if you want to analyze it, the way to do it is to write down an actual maximizing function. You quickly realize that the existence of external assets can cause any such economic maximization function to flip sign, and become a *minimization* function.
<bsm1175321> (Under the right circumstances, one wants to reduce one's holdings of a given asset)
<bsm1175321> No mutation of the "stake" rules changes this fact.
<Eliel> I don't see how the stake rules being explicit rather than implicit makes for much of a difference
echonaut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echonaut1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
echonaut1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echonaut has joined #bitcoin-wizards
suraeNoether has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
suraeNoether has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
danrobinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
str4d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
baffo32 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
baffo32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
itsme_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
itsme_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
CubicEarthh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
d9b4bef9 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kaalia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz has quit [Quit: Leaving]
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
huseby has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
espes__ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<gmaxwell> petertodd: what do you think of the concept of a fraud bond: Imagine some high value locktimed UTXOs exists, and I write a transaction a that is valid if and only if block X is in the chain which gives away gives away these coins to fees (but I cannot do anything except give them away to fees until the locktime expires). If I give you this transaction, it is evidence that a block is invalid.
<gmaxwell> It's not proof-- but it's perhaps persusaive enough to get to shut down and require manual intervention to accept that block.
<kanzure> well there's his fidelity bond stuff https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146307.0
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<kanzure> oh i see, persuasive because why hasn't someone taken those fees.
<kanzure> doesn't this only show something interesting if your inputs are referencing some censored outputs or something?
<gmaxwell> kanzure: it requires a way to make a transaction which is only good if block X is in the chain. Which means an additional opcode, though a reaonably cheap one, or cooperation with block X's author (kinda defeats the purpose). Or something clever that I haven't thought of yet.
danrobinson has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
espes__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
huseby has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
tunafizz has quit [Read error: No route to host]
tunafizz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Samdney has quit [Quit: Verlassend]