sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
what about transaction fees get replaced by transaction pow, then do transaction pow difficulty targeting (or straight up competition)?
<kanzure>
oh it only works if you're doing merkle dag things, because otherwise you can't pay to make up for the missing subsidy
<kanzure>
nevermind
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<surae>
howdy everyone
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<bsm117532>
I've long wanted a transaction PoW...where the miners are service providers who mine your transaction and submit it, and you pay them in fiat not in subsidy.
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<gmaxwell>
because you like progress and parties with the highest hashrate to solve all the blocks?
<bsm117532>
Who said anything about blocks? Target is satisfied when the sum of all work on the transactions passes a threshold, and there is no block reward.
<bsm117532>
Coins could be allocated (for instance) proportional to the difficulty on the transactions, with the miners adding an output.
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<bsm117532>
Not proposing a full solution here...just brainstorming...the idea probably requires some form of aggregatable PoW. I wrote a whole blog post on this and didn't publish it (yet)...need to evaluate whether I can create an aggregatable PoW based on sipa's "rolling UTXO commitment" idea. (or any other idea for that matter)
<bsm117532>
"Aggregatable PoW" is a PoW where the PoW hashes can be "added" and proved in O(1) that they correspond to the claimed work. Bitcoin only achieves this by having the full history of PoW hashes. An "Aggregatable PoW" I define as a single hash you could present that would represent the accumulated work, and could be verified in O(1).
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<mryandao>
under this model, does it mean the user with the most powerful processor gets to produce the most transactions?
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<Eliel>
bsm117532: isn't the current PoW algorithm aggregatable in a sense already? I mean, all you need to do is pick the lowest hash you found to represent the work. It loses some accuracy in the process though.
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<bsm117532>
Eliel: yes that's one form of aggregation, see the "proofs of proofs of work" paper.
<Eliel>
bsm117532: wouldn't a transaction chain work? Where individual transactions are chained and when you happen to find a low hash for one, that then becomes something kind of like a block.
<bsm117532>
The loss of accuracy prevents its use for lots of things though. The smallest hash in the chain won't change for roughly T time, where T is the age of the chain. (You have to roughly double the hashpower*time to find a new smallest hash)
<bsm117532>
Also if multiple miners are contributing to creating this smallest hash, you want to be able to have that data to decide compensation for them.
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<surae>
any known work on partial transaction confirmations?
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<fluffypony>
surae: partial as in?
<surae>
well, the aggregatable idea above is sort of en route to what i'm thinking about
<surae>
my shower thought was a scheme for collaborating on block verification, so if 2-of-3 or m-of-n miners together have a complete copy of the blockchain, they can collectively post a block and share reward
<surae>
if miners X, Y, and Z each have about 2/3 of the blockchain and they bundle some txns into a "block..." such that for any one txn in the block, if X and Y together have a complete history of the txn, but Z is missing some of it, or any 2-of-3...
<surae>
then maybe they can build a merkle tree satisfying some difficulty target in order to earn the right to post the block to the blockchain. or something along those lines
<surae>
similarly, miners without a fully copy of the blockchain would be forced to collaborate with each other while verifying blocks before relaying them or adding them to their local copy of the blockchain
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<bsm117532>
surae: that's kind of the idea...if work can be aggregated, it could be done at the tx level or (some form of sub-block) level. Miners could collaborate to produce the target PoW. This could help decentralize mining, allow sub-chains/shards to be merge-mined, and a number of other interesting things.
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<gmaxwell>
"Miners could collaborate to produce the target PoW."
<gmaxwell>
20:23 < gmaxwell> because you like progress and parties with the highest hashrate to solve all the blocks?
<bsm117532>
I don't understand your comment.
<gmaxwell>
Clearly.
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: imagine for a moment that you have your perfect cumulative proof of work.
<gmaxwell>
where you can accumulate up single hashes and get a resulting POW with work equal to the sum of the hashes that went in.
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<gmaxwell>
Now you, sipa, and I are miners. Lets say 100,000 hashes are required to make a block. Now say I have 40 hashes per second power, and you and sipa each have 30.
<sipa>
gmaxwell is clearly using ASICBOOST
<gmaxwell>
I could keep my solutions private and I will mine ~all the blocks. Or alternatively, you and sipa could collude by sharing your solutions and I will mine none of them.
<gmaxwell>
Cumulative work results in progress: Faster wins, rather than fast hash improved odds proportional to their fastness.
<gmaxwell>
s/rather than fast hash/rather than fast has/
<gmaxwell>
E.g. I should win 40% of the blocks, not 100% (or 0%) in that example.
<bsm117532>
Well that would be a bad way to organize it clearly. I was mentioning tx level mining. Block-builders could be solely aggregators, and different entities than miners.
<bsm117532>
In other words, miners must be forced to share. Selfish mining bad.
<gmaxwell>
Because they're nice guys? Why don't I spin up two identities Greg and Greg' and greg' makes transactions and doesn't share them except with Greg?
<sipa>
forcing miners to cooperate seems to remove the permissionless of mining
<bsm117532>
Dunno. I'm clearly not making a proposal yet. Just wondering whether "aggregatable PoW" is a useful concept.
<gmaxwell>
I'm sure it's useful for some thing. For POW purposes itself not so much perhaps.
<gmaxwell>
We give an aggregate POW in the sidechains paper.
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: I would expect that to be common. Block reward has to be removed. Block aggregators wouldn't be incentivized, and the PoW payout would be in the individual mined txns.
<gmaxwell>
but for many purposes the progress breaks it.
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: oh? In reorg proofs?
<bsm117532>
Really, Bitcion IS aggregated PoW, it just takes O(n) to verify.
<bsm117532>
O(1) would be cool and could be used in new ways.
<sipa>
but Bitcoin's aggregated PoW does more
<sipa>
it's not only aggregating, it's also committing to the non-aggregated version
<sipa>
if you can retain that property, i think you may be right
<sipa>
but i also think that might be theoretically impossible in an O(1) construction :)
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: bitcoin like pow can be verified in ln(n), if you have the right commitments.
<gmaxwell>
which is what the sidechains paper describes.