sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<yoleaux>
While the activation of Segwit is awesome, miners are still playing games. They activated the Emergency difficulty adjustment again on BCash (@WhalePanda)
<yoleaux>
So it's more profitable again, to mine it like crazy again. So again we'll have slow #Bitcoin blocks until the BCash difficulty is too high. (@WhalePanda, in reply to tw:900583302704312320)
<yoleaux>
At this speed they'll trigger the BCash halving way sooner than expected though and meanwhile there is some sort of hyperinflation at play (@WhalePanda, in reply to tw:900583482442870785)
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
wrong channel
<nsh>
well, it's about new incentives for miners to game relative difficulty between two chains, which may be of some theoretical interest
<nsh>
but perhaps better discussed in -forks
<kanzure>
nope. happened in scrypt land for years.
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
hm
eddiewang has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
airbreather has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Alina-malina has quit [Changing host]
Alina-malina has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards
welcomed1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<welcomed1>
About bitcoin's blockchain model; Would it be proper to require a proof of work for a decentralized consensus blockchain based healthcare system? Typically given that entries in the ledger for such systems will be health records and nodes or users rather are so not designed to reward each besides granting access to health records.
<kanzure>
idea is too vague, please submit your question in the form of an answer
eddiewang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
harrigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrigan has quit [Client Quit]
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
harrigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<welcomed1>
I want to apply the blockchain architecture in the implementation of a decentralized healthcare system. From my study of the bitcoin implementation of blockchain architecture, I understand that for a block of transaction to be added to the chain, the transaction must be valid and the associated proof of work must be solved. Apart from regulatory ro
<welcomed1>
les (In terms of coin generation) and determining which node to reward, does the proof of work concept provide any other advantage to the network?
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrigan has quit [Quit: leaving]
airbreather has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
g33kyboi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<welcomed1>
wrong channel?
airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
yes. no blockchain is remotely applicable to this.
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
eddiewang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
daszorz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrigan has quit [Client Quit]
harrigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<yoleaux>
Time-Lock Puzzles from Randomized Encodings - YouTube
<bsm117532>
Well yes...but why is "memory hard" important?
<kanzure>
it's probably not
<bsm117532>
As long as you have the property of sequentiality, memory-hard seems irrelevant
<kanzure>
oh i remember now
<kanzure>
because memory bandwidth tends to be more expensive than CPU PoW
<kanzure>
i was thinking about long-term timelocks with durations greater than a few years
<bsm117532>
But computation-based timelock is tied to max CMOS clock rates.
andytoshi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<kanzure>
is computation and clock speed really something you want to be racing against for the purposes of timelocks?
<bsm117532>
I've been thinking about replacing Bitcoin's timestamp in blocks with a proof of elapsed time...
<kanzure>
or is it the only option
<bsm117532>
I think it's the only option.
andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
Note I'm talking about something more like the Rivest algorithm 2^2^t rather than Proof of Intel in Sawtooth.
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Quit: bye]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has quit [Client Quit]
<bsm117532>
I really thought I knew how to do proof of elapsed time in a trustless manner. I don't think I do anymore. The Rivest-Shamir-Wagner algorithm requires someone to choose a RSA-style product of primes for verification.
thrmo has quit [Quit: Waiting for .007]
<bsm117532>
andytoshi we talked about this a couple months ago. Do you know any way to measure time?
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has quit [Client Quit]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
andytoshi has quit [Changing host]
andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
i don't, i think in my use cases there was usually a "challenger" who was allowed to be trusted
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Meeh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
abpa has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
<bsm117532>
poop
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Noldorin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
abpa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
oleganza has quit [Quit: oleganza]
jimmysong__ is now known as jimmysong
mn3monic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
thrmo has quit [Quit: Waiting for .007]
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mn3monic has quit [Changing host]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<praxeology1>
Hi sipa. So is the current plan to not commit on the rolling utxo hash first... and have all communication about them outside of blocks... maybe similar to how assumevalid works?
bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<instagibbs>
praxeology1, not committing into the block means it can be a per-project thing, and you get basically all the benefits, yes
<praxeology1>
Easier to change later w/out commitment. Sounds good to me
bliljerk101 has quit []
<shesek>
the security trade-off is somewhat different than assumevalid, though. exploiting assumevalid requires cooperation between the developers and miners, while the utxo commitment can be exploited by developers with no miner cooperation
<kanzure>
let's call it a signed utxo commitment or whatever
<kanzure>
not sure that's the right naming. it's not the same thing as a consensus-enforced utxo commitment.
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gmaxwell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: there is a lot more to it than you're thinking. I don't think it's reasonable to expect many nodes to have Nx increase in their state size just to support people syncing from them.
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: so we have a proposal that uses FEC to split the seralized utxo data into many parts so that peers can keep only 1/nth (e.g. 1/8th) of the last M snapshots. (where M probably needs to be at least 2)
eddiewang has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<Emcy>
whats wrong with getting SPV start mode deployed sooner rather than later. That takes a lot of pressure off the sync time problem
<Emcy>
there is an actual project for it on the repo. But it hasnt been touched in a while
<sipa>
Emcy: there is nothing wrong with it, but it's not an easy thing to do
<sipa>
and people are all volunteers
<Emcy>
sure
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
Emcy: and there are many other flamingly critical priorities.
eddiewang has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Emcy>
i dont doubt it
<Emcy>
i misjudged the urgency of the ibd sync issue perhaps. Its going to get even longer form now on assuming well used segwit blocks tho
eddiewan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eddiewang has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<sipa>
Emcy: SPV sync doesn't help getting IBD sync time up
<sipa>
it helps Bitcoin Core wallet users transact earlier only
<Emcy>
i believe there will be a nice bump in your favour still coming down the line though, in the form of decent sized SSDs as standard making their way down to the cheaper end of the computer market
<gmaxwell>
sipa: I think emcy's point is that a user won't care if it takes two weeks to sync up if their wallet is usable from minute three.
<sipa>
gmaxwell: sure, but full nodes still need to do IBD
<Emcy>
sipa yes i know. what gmax said.
eddiewan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<praxeology1>
gmaxwell: a pruned node keeping a few utxo snapshots around is a lot less data than the entire block history
<sipa>
praxeology1: still a lot more than a pruned node without any snapshots :)
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: bad comparison though.
<gmaxwell>
a pruned node is the minimum to run a node today. And I expect that like ethereum is heading in the long enough future there won't be any nodes with the full history.
<gmaxwell>
So your point is kinda like saying "a pruned node keeping a few snapshots is a lot less data than a full node plus 100 libraries of congress" .... trueee but not really a good benchmark of the relative costs. :)
<praxeology1>
a snapshot is nothing compared to the full history
<sipa>
praxeology1: why are you comparing with the full history
<gmaxwell>
a full history is nothing compared to 100 libraries of congress.
<sipa>
praxeology1: the full history is currently not required for any full node
<gmaxwell>
If syncing from snapshots is to be useful it must be very widespread if not quite ubiquitous, multiplying storage costs times three isn't a /great/ way to get there.
<praxeology1>
The full history is currently required on *some* nodes in order to synch, and the full history must be validated by any full node who wishes to enter. Having a snapshot option gives users the ability to start from snapshot, a new synch option... which full nodes could run as an option to help others synch from instead of full history, alleviating the need to have/transmit the full history in many use cases.
<praxeology1>
Maybe a node starting from a snapshot would not be considered a "full" node anymore, that definition I do not care to debate
<sipa>
some nodes doesn't mean you
<sipa>
the cost for you, today, is running a pruned node
<praxeology1>
anyways... what is "FEC"? a new acronym to me
<praxeology1>
What kind of snapshot period were you guys thinking of?
<sipa>
1-6 months or so
<praxeology1>
I was thinking 3 months, so I guess I am not too far out there
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: I'd assumed 6 months. and always syncing off one that was at least 6 months old, or roughly that.
<praxeology1>
yea, I'd definitely want to synch from further back, maybe 1 year I'd be more comfortable with personally
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: so one hard tradeoff there is for that to work we'd need most nodes to have a year of blocks. Thats a lot of data. (to be clear, I'm not disagreeing, ending up syncing from a year back is what I was suggesting too)
<gmaxwell>
though to be clear, if you will always sync from X back then you need to at least be able to sometimes sync from X+interval back, when you just miss the deadline.
<praxeology1>
yes
<praxeology1>
a year of block history would be much larger than a utxo snapshot :p
blackwraith has quit [Read error: No route to host]
hasten has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hasten has quit [Client Quit]
Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving..."]
g33kyboi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mn3monic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]