#bitcoin-wizards on 2017-08-29 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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06:37 <wallet42> what would be a theoretical size/weight of a 2 ins 2 outs transaction that uses a hypothetical v1_segwit schnorr signature scheme? inputs spend/outputs created are both schnorr scripts

06:43 <aj> wallet42: probably a few bytes smaller than a v0_segwit tx (due to using a custom encoding rather than DER) ? i don't think an encoding has been proposed yet though

06:44 <wallet42> well i read something like schnorr can do public key recovery?

06:44 <wallet42> so you d need only 1 element on the witness data stack (the actual signature)

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06:44 <wallet42> and the public key hash on the output side

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06:45 <aj> wallet42: can't you do that with ecdsa too?

06:45 <wallet42> well checksigverify doesn't do it

06:45 <aj> wallet42: yeah, it's slow i think.

06:46 <wallet42> but saving another 33-35 bytes is huge imo

06:46 <aj> wallet42: signature aggregation changes things though; i think you'd have a single 80-byte sig for the block, and just the 32-bytes for each txin pubkey

06:46 <wallet42> :-O

06:46 <aj> wallet42: (with sigagg you need the pubkeys as i understand it)

06:47 <wallet42> in that case im happy to do that trade :)

06:48 <aj> hmm, signature aggregation means you can't do a small SPV proof of bad signatures?

06:50 <wallet42> merkle tree hash of unagregated sigs?

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06:54 <aj> ah, hmm, apparently current proposals only merge sigs within a transaction, not a block (and encourage coinjoin-like usage for users to merge transactions themselves)

06:55 <wallet42> where to read more?

06:55 <aj> so i think that would make the 2-of-2 drop an 80 byte sig, but keep the two 32 byte pubkeys and one of the 80 byte sigs (plus a byte or two of accounting)

06:55 <aj> https://bitcoincore.org/en/2017/03/23/schnorr-signature-aggregation/

06:55 <aj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0

06:55 <wallet42> (y)

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15:06 <adiabat> there *is* a proposal to do block-wide signatiure aggregation

15:06 <adiabat> it's ... got issues though :/

15:07 <adiabat> the way it would work size-wise is that every signature in the block would be cut in half, into 2 32-byte parts

15:07 <adiabat> one 32-byte part would remain, and the other 32-byte part of every signature would be combined and committed to in the coinbase tx by the miner

15:07 <andytoshi> aj: sigs are 64 bytes. with signature aggregation they can all be reduced to 32 bytes with an additional 32-byte aggregate

15:08 <adiabat> it works mathematically; the problem is caching

15:08 <andytoshi> right, what adiabat said also applies to the interactive scheme

15:08 <adiabat> with interactive & schnorr (or BN signatures I think) the whole thing turns in to 64 bytes

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15:11 <andytoshi> no, that's true for multisignatures but not for aggregation (which works with multiple messages that have distinct pubkeys)

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15:12 <adiabat> I'm not clear on the different terms here

15:13 <adiabat> for bitcoin's use case, an interactive siganture aggregation within one transaction would have one signauture for the whole tx

15:13 <adiabat> so yeah they're all signing the same message

15:13 <adiabat> with a bunch of different pubkeys

15:13 <andytoshi> no

15:13 <adiabat> that can all go into 64 bytes

15:13 <andytoshi> that is not signature aggregation

15:13 <adiabat> ok what do you call that?

15:13 <andytoshi> i would call that a multisignature

15:14 <adiabat> and signature aggregation is for multiple messages?

15:14 <andytoshi> it supports multiple messages, yes, but it's also for separate pubkeys that aren't assumed to have been chosen non-maliciously

15:15 <andytoshi> doing a multisig like you describe requires more interaction and is much harder to do securely if there are malicious signers

15:15 <adiabat> multisignature also works with pubkeys that aren't known beforehand

15:15 <andytoshi> not securely it doesn't

15:16 <adiabat> hm... I may again be using different terms but

15:16 <adiabat> e.g https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~mihir/papers/multisignatures-ccs.pdf

15:17 <adiabat> which is what people are basing the the multisignature work for bitcoin on

15:17 <andytoshi> adiabat: yes, that is signature aggregation

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15:17 <andytoshi> adiabat: yes, i am one of those "people", i wrote the first implementation of signature aggregation

15:18 <andytoshi> the authors use the term "multisignature" for what we are terming "signature aggregation" because we're using it to aggregate what would otherwise be separate signatures

15:18 <adiabat> ok wait ... signature aggrregation = multiple messages, multiple pubkeys

15:18 <andytoshi> yes

15:18 <adiabat> multisignature = 1 message, multiple pubkeys

15:18 <andytoshi> i use that term to mean 1 message, 1 pubkey (well, from the verifier's perspective)

15:19 <adiabat> ohhhh

15:19 <adiabat> OK I think sipa was using the term "key aggregation" for that

15:19 <andytoshi> ah, yeah, that's right

15:19 <adiabat> though acutally I don't think people were clear on what to call it :)

15:19 <andytoshi> i think "multisignature" we'll probably just have to taboo

15:20 <adiabat> yeah we should write up what the different scenarios are and the right terms for them

15:20 <andytoshi> yeah, i know..

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15:31 <Beginer> fuck all

15:32 <Beginer> https://blockchain.info/payment_request?address=3D2oetdNuZUqQHPJmcMDDHYoqkyNVsFk9r&message=Please+a+need+this+money,+every+day+is+very+difficult+to+me.+Please+help-me+a+need+to+give+money+for+my+family.+I+do+anything+for+this+%0A&amount=1

15:32 <Beginer> 3JfyCAuEskY8zWwBHM8HVUfp8UGLfdzKX6

15:33 <Beginer> 3JfyCAuEskY8zWwBHM8HVUfp8UGLfdzKX6

15:33 <Beginer> please

15:33 <Beginer> 3JfyCAuEskY8zWwBHM8HVUfp8UGLfdzKX6

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15:42 <newbie> hm

15:42 <newbie> please..

15:42 <newbie> stop spamming

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16:22 * adlai is reminded of the one about the young student who approaches professor before exam, alone, at night; pledges to do anything, anything at all, just to pass the exam; quoth the prof: "Would you... study?"

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21:24 <fluffypony> hey the beggers are using multisig

21:25 <fluffypony> it's a new world!

21:25 <sipa> ?

21:28 <fluffypony> sipa: the spam from "Beginer" earlier

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22:04 <belcher> could just be segwit

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22:22 <asaaq13> hi

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23:48 * charutocafe[m] sent a long message: charutocafe[m]_2017-08-29_23:48:20.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/tNRpqibOlxlqxXgMuZHQqApm>

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