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<yoleaux>
GitHub - dalek-cryptography/merlin: Composable proof transcripts for public-coin arguments of knowledge
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<CubicEarth>
aj: great talk!
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<aj>
CubicEarth: thanks
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<CubicEarth>
I've long envisioned something similar, and I expect that, in due time, it will come to pass. I am glad you put the effort into giving context, and high level mechanisms by which such could be implemented
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<CubicEarth>
A bit of a courageous talk at that!
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<maaku>
tromp: then I challenge you to implement forward blocks. it is rediculously simple
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<stevenroose>
maaku: what's your take on the far future scenario where 99.9% of clients is upgraded to a forward-blocks software? It doesn't seem to be possible to phase out the compat chain as it's the only place where results from all shards are bundled.
<stevenroose>
But then again, at some point all forward chain activity will be non-backwards-compatible, so only pegins and coinbases will be handled in the compat chain
<stevenroose>
Or would f.e. CT activity also be made available in the compat chain?
<stevenroose>
with zero-value outputs
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<maaku>
stevenroose: it's a necessary synchronization point. the compatibility chain never goes away
<maaku>
but it only adds a small constant amount per block
<maaku>
since the contents are deterministic
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<NanashiFish>
Hey all
<NanashiFish>
I have some questions regarding BIP39
<NanashiFish>
Would there be anybody willing to help
<waxwing>
i'm confused about something in the early part of the article: they make a generic construct for things like RFC6979, but as well as hashing in the transcript, the secret they also hash in an external randomness source. so it's not deterministic any more.
<waxwing>
i don't really understand why they do that
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<jcorgan>
in the referenced documentation of TranscriptRng: " In Merlin's setting, the only secrets available to the prover are the witness variables for the proof statement, so in the presence of a weak or failing RNG, the "backup" entropy is limited to the entropy of the witness variables."
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<jcorgan>
also: "Binding the output to the Transcript state ensures that two different proof contexts always generate different outputs. This prevents repeating blinding factors between proofs. Binding the output to the prover's witness data ensures that the PRF output has at least as much entropy as the witness does. Finally, binding the output to the output of an external RNG provides a backstop and avoids the downsides of fully deterministic genera
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<waxwing>
yeah; in that second text chunk, it's all clear, except the third (btw your text got cut off) ... i'm not sure what are considered the 'disadvantages of fully deterministic generation'
<waxwing>
iirc Pornin gave some reasonable motivation for deterministic in RFC6979
<waxwing>
but the first of the two you quoted may be an interesting aspect, not sure i got it yet. i guess there are cases where the witness doesn't have much entropy ... but then .. ?
<jcorgan>
they claim that the fully deterministic form used in 6979 aids in "fault injection". i don't know what that is.
<jcorgan>
i think the idea is "at least as much entropy as the witness variables, but the external PRF makes it unique for each proof"
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<waxwing>
oh no but, transcript + secret is always unique; it's like, imagine creating two versions of a schnorr sig; same message, same nonce, same privkey. you haven't; you've just created the same one twice :)
<waxwing>
re: fault injection, i have a memory of people talking about evilness where someone builds a device say, with bad randomness, and silently leaks your privkey over time with it.
<waxwing>
just a random memory though, not sure how/to what extent relevant here. interesting, though.
<jcorgan>
i agree it's a little confusing
<jcorgan>
that's actually a motivation *for* 6979
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<waxwing>
heh
<jcorgan>
so after a little background reading i think what they are saying is that a fault injection attack as you describe in a secret key generator is more easily leaked through a deterministic nonce signature scheme
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<waxwing>
Just from a testing point of view, not using deterministic makes me a bit sad
<waxwing>
but if i follow what you're saying, one can at least see the reasoning
<jcorgan>
this is why i don't design cryptographic systems for a living, there would be a lot more sadness in the world :)
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<Eliel_>
maaku: couldnt the forward blocks be implemented such that the compatibility chain doesn't actually need to be stored because it can be generated on the fly from data stored in the new structure?
<Eliel_>
or perhaps mostly doesn't need to be stored.
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<dgpv>
in bip174, 'master key fingerprint' is used, that is defined in bip32 as 32-bit value, that is susceptible to collisions. Do this mean that when someone plans to use PBST, collision check needs to be done at the time of multisig scheme setup, and participant have to publish their fingerprints to avoid collisions ?
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<waxwing>
dgpv, well but you're still checking the key; that field (masterkeyfingerprint, path) is only telling you where to look to see if it matches.
<waxwing>
i'd see the fingerprint as purely functioning as a hint or sanity check, no?
<dgpv>
well, if you have a match, you might try to derive and check if the derived pubkey matches the pubkey stored in the keypair
<dgpv>
but if they do not match, do you consider PBST invalid, or ignore that ?
<waxwing>
well say it was on an output, and say it's a hardware device; in that case, you just wouldn't sign it, as the output destination is not recognized.
<dgpv>
if another participant have the same fingerprint...
<dgpv>
that would mean the multisig setup is not functional
<dgpv>
someone have the key with the same fingerprint as yours
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<dgpv>
and you cannot sign PBST because you deeming it invalid
<waxwing>
well, the key in the k-v pair is not the fingerprint, but the pubkey (in the bip32 derivation field), so that'd be unique
<dgpv>
but it is the derived pubkey, right ?
<dgpv>
so the match against xprivkey needs to be done with fingerprint
<waxwing>
and for a multisig you'd have to add the redeemscript k-v pair too right. so if you had two bip32derivations with the same fingerprint ... i'm not sure but i think you'd just check each and see if either matched your key?
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<dgpv>
... and the redeemScript (if provided) matches ...
<dgpv>
so it may not be provided
<dgpv>
maybe it may not be provided it participants are to reconstruct redeemscripts from derived pubkeys ?
<gmaxwell>
stop
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<dgpv>
ah, looks like its more redemscript or witness, ok
<gmaxwell>
What "32 bit fingerprint" are you talking about?
<waxwing>
the bip32 one that's specified as part of the Bip32Derivation k-v pair in BIP174
<dgpv>
PSBT_IN_BIP32_DERIVATION
<dgpv>
Value: The master key fingerprint as defined by BIP 32
<waxwing>
(OUT as well as IN)
<dgpv>
BIP32: The first 32 bits of the identifier are called the key fingerprint.
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<dgpv>
so you extract pubkeys from redeemscript or witness
<dgpv>
and check against them
<waxwing>
well now i see you're thinking about inputs, sure, you can't sign without redeemscript/witnessscript
<dgpv>
but you have to add a code to handle this corner case
<waxwing>
well .. meh, i mean, if you get a fingerprint that matches, but the key doesn't, then that one doesn't work, but .. that's just one way the data could fail to match right. not sure it's a very special corner case in practice.
<waxwing>
i mean, maybe.
<waxwing>
sorry we may be quite offtopic for this channel though it's probably #bitcoin or perhaps somewhere else
<dgpv>
ok
<waxwing>
i think it's best seen as a hint.
<dgpv>
yeah, I see. Thanks
<dgpv>
sorry for offtopic.
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