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<rodarmor>
Has anyone done any work on how close to optimal current SHA-2 (or any other PoW function) ASICs are, by counting the number of operations needed to calculate SHA-2, calculating the minimal number of joules to perform these operations (according to the Landauer limit), and comparing to real chips?
<rodarmor>
It might not be a useful number (as in, we might be so bad at making hardware that the lower limit is zillions of orders of magnitude below current miner efficiency) :P But it would still be interesting to know.
<nsh>
in practice energy/power/thermal-dispersion optimality is a function to fabrication process details incorporating a whole bunch of things at a much higher abstraction / complexity level than the bit landauer floor
<nsh>
there's probably little meaningful science because those operative details are highly proprietary
<nsh>
may be a bunch of corp-confidential data at mining hw producing companies and their immediate up/downstream partners
<nsh>
i haven't seen anything in scienceland though but then again i haven't especially looked
<nsh>
profit is dictated by e.g. time-to-market and good relationships with fab plant peeps and making wise socioeconomic decisions that are again far removed from the hard computational technicalities and the answers you probably most want are in the minds of employees and some verilog files that are worth too much for us to be able to read
<nsh>
(given current process i'd be surprised if the bitflip optimal circuit would result in maximal hashrate because thermal dispersion is probably more operative but i don't know anything about anything and i'm just guessing)
<sipa>
ha, landauer limit... with 1273 W (S9 energy consumption) operating at 90 C, you could compute 950 exahash per second (considering that every hash operations destroys 384 bits going from 640 bits of input to 256 bits of output)
<sipa>
that's 73 million more than reality
<sipa>
*times
<nsh>
so how many calories in a current bitcoin block? :)
<rodarmor>
sipa: Okay, so not really a useful lower bound :P
<sipa>
also, if you'd implement SHA256 using toffoli gates it's possible with 0 energy, right?
<sipa>
:)
<nsh>
scratch space would be pretty astronomical
<nsh>
then you're paying some other way
<rodarmor>
If you were using toffoli gates, wouldn't you have all the extra bits to store in order to keep it reversible?
<rodarmor>
Hmm, although that treats SHA-2 as a black box. Unless there's some way to skip lots of SHA-2 operations, then you could likely get a better bound by counting all the bits destroyed in the individual operations (adds, xors, etc)
<nsh>
they kinda unroll/whatever SHA2 into reversible circuit with a view to space constraint
<nsh>
you end up doing some kinda weird garbage collection
<nsh>
there's probably a 0.5th rule of thermodynamics or something here. you gotta manage entropy somehow
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<gmaxwell>
rodarmor: Landauer limit is mostly worthless. It isn't a precise limit.
<gmaxwell>
it's a lower bound.
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<gmaxwell>
So there isn't any particular reason to think that just because a function looks more energy intensive under that limit than some other function that it will actually be more energy intensive under any realizable model of computation.
<gmaxwell>
Also, if you admit reversable computation, and use general reversable gates and allow unbounded amounts of intermediate state, then all pow functions have equal and very low energy requirements according to that limit.
<gmaxwell>
(because every attempt can uncompute itself to avoid destroying any bits, and so you'd only consume energy for outputing the solution(s))
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<musalbas>
I came across this paper that proposes doing so using algebraic vector commitments that I think may be worth discussing.
<musalbas>
The crux of the paper is that if you commit to the state using algebraic vector commitments, and you want to achieve stateless validation, then you can make it possible for Alice to send money to Bob, and only provide the proof of Alice’s balance. With a Merkle tree, you’d also need to provide proof of Bob’s balance. This may be nice, because that means everyone one needs to store their own state; Alice doesn’t need
<musalbas>
to know Bob’s state. However, it appears to require a trusted setup.
<nsh>
so maybe trusted setup can be obviated through pederson arithmetic properties but you have to find a way to boil it down to parity/equity/nonce-cancellation
<nsh>
in mean isn't a putative bulletproofs coin kinda stateless in the same way they describe in that abstract as would be a MW chain
<nsh>
UTXO is subsumed in the 'excesses' carried forward that ensure the parity can be validated after every block
<nsh>
i'm possibly misrepresenting
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<nsh>
there's something especially weaselly btw about the phrasing "up to approximately two orders of magnitude"
<nsh>
the point of orders of magnitude as a concept is to be sufficiently weaselly
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<nsh>
putting "approximately two" in front of it just wracks of notgreatness
<waxwing>
in astrophysics OOM^2 (an oom of an oom) is considered pretty decent accuracy :)
<gmaxwell>
iohk, presses close.
* gmaxwell
doesn't waste time reading publications put out by outright scammers.
<nsh>
which author(s), so i know in future?
<gmaxwell>
anything with an IOHK email address, thats a org made by the protoshares guy, basically mills out ultrascammy altcoins.
<gmaxwell>
After doing ethereum he even wrote a long bragging essay about what a rip off all these altcoins are.
<waxwing>
gmaxwell, yeah but: it's just a paper :) it's not like a .. "whitepaper". also said person is not an author here. kinda silly to bring that in to it (even if i tend to agree)
<gmaxwell>
I dunno, I don't think that we do the world any good to enable fraudsters by paying attention to their work, and they shouldn't be able to wash their way out of it by paying people to do their next scam.
<gmaxwell>
But thats just my call. ::shrugs::
* nsh
nods agreement
<gmaxwell>
Perhaps my opinion would have been different if the first iohk publications I saw weren't also dishonest bullshit themselves. (fradulently claiming POS with equal security properties to POW)
<midnightmagic>
never heard that one before
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