#bitcoin-wizards on 2019-01-14 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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09:25 <skelpy> Hi, my login username to the wiki is [b]Skelpy[/b] We would like to add our blockchain to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Skelpy Thanks!

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10:48 <lifelifelif> hello

10:48 <lifelifelif> = =

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15:04 <kanzure> "Biased nonce sense: Lattice attacks against weak ECDSA signatures in cryptocurrencies" https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/023.pdf

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15:08 <nsh> nice title :)

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15:11 <waxwing> i posted that a couple of days ago

15:12 <waxwing> we were talking about the dark wallet multisig (which i thought was super interesting) and gmaxwell figured out the origin of the 64 bit nonces, which was also super interesting. nice paper.

15:13 <cjd> isn't it ok to take H(private || message) for the nonce ?

15:13 <cjd> that would save a lot of pain and siffering with "random" numbers

15:17 <waxwing> cjd, that's essentially what rfc6979 does

15:17 <waxwing> (although it's a little more involved ofc)

15:17 <waxwing> basically all (sane) wallets are doing that now. except for some special functionality here and there i guess.

15:17 <cjd> cool

15:18 <cjd> I saw it in ed25519 code and it struck me as an obvious good idea

15:18 <waxwing> yes, i've heard people say 'ed25519 is better than ecdsa because it has deterministic nonces' which is, like, a bit confused :)

15:22 <cjd> I guess it's "better than ecdsa because it's quick" (?)

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15:46 <sipa> cjd: hardly :)

15:47 <cjd> since I'm working on a PoW and trying to throw in everything that I'd like to see in optimized OpenCL, I have been considering throwing in an eddsa or a secp256k sig validation

15:48 <cjd> just remove the final consttime_memcmp() so that the validation becomes a sort of hash

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15:51 <sipa> why?

15:52 <cjd> because in a couple of years, it'll be as easy to find fast GPU secp256 as it is to find fast GPU sha256

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15:54 <sipa> why would that not be true for any other PoW function, assuming enoigh economic incentives exist to fund development?

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15:55 <cjd> IMO it is true for any PoW function, which is why I like the idea of shoving useful things into the PoW

15:56 <nsh> there have been arguments that adding 'utility' in that sense to the PoW gives no benefits, because roughly the existing benefits are dependent somehow on the PoW solving the problems it does and not additional ones

15:56 <nsh> but i don't recall the arguments well enough to replicate them properly

15:57 <nsh> maybe vaguely it might detract from the statistical properties of the block discovery process if it is coupled to some other external problems

15:57 <nsh> or the dynamic membership properties or other desiderata

15:57 <cjd> You can't allow people to change the definition of the work problem otherwise miners do so

15:57 <sipa> cjd: oh i see

15:58 <cjd> but making the work problem look very much like a problem that otherwise would be interesting to solve... that drives research in the direction of solving interesting things

15:58 <nsh> there may be convergence. i am inceasingly unconvinced that multiple problems cannot be solved by the same process

15:59 <sipa> that may work, but i think it may be a bit too late, and also, optimizations tend to be found that make the hardware not usable for anything but exactly PoW

15:59 <nsh> that is, i think processes can be 'overloaded' interpretationally so that more is done at the same time than when the interpretations were singular

15:59 <nsh> well, we might try and reduce other problems to PoW then

15:59 <nsh> rather than achieve convergence in the other direction

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16:00 <cjd> example: https://github.com/cjdelisle/PacketCrypt/blob/master/src/CryptoCycle.h#L6

16:00 <nsh> to use a nontrivial example: solving a physics simulation is in some sense establishing a proof of (minimal) work

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16:00 <nsh> or action

16:00 <nsh> which is roughly the same thing i suppose

16:00 <cjd> nsh: we definitely need to continue research in this area, but I don't see anything working for now

16:00 * nsh nods

16:01 <nsh> it feels closer at least than it did until recently, from my perspective :)

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17:01 <gmaxwell> kanzure: re: earlier link https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/83559/what-is-the-origin-of-insecure-64-bit-nonces-in-signatures-in-the-bitcoin-chain/

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22:54 <belcher> is there an alternative source of logs for this channel? the link in the topic uses botbot.me which is shut down

23:00 <nsh> cc kanzure

23:00 <kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/

23:01 <nsh> ty

23:01 <nsh> and at whitequark and at botbot.me i believe

23:02 <nsh> ( https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/bitcoin-wizards/2019-01-14 https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2019-01-14 )

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23:08 <belcher> ty kanzure nsh

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23:10 * nsh nods, smiles

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