#bitcoin-wizards on 2019-01-22 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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04:55 <gmaxwell> Here is a potentially interesting idea for node anti-surveillance: Middle mode connections: Connect out to two nodes, and pass traffic between them. Do not originate any of your own messages into the links, passively observe tx/blocks/headers that cross the link, so you're not purely wasting bandwidth. Similarly could be done where you proxy through and middle mode some inbound conections.

04:56 <gmaxwell> any effort to try to learn things about the network graph assuming all connections with a give IP are to the same host, would be broken by this sort of behavior.

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04:57 <gmaxwell> I suppose you could also go slightly active, and splice new blocks you've accepted into links too... since they're not terribly useful for profiling.

04:58 <gleb> Are you talking about surveillance from ISP/government or at p2p layer where an attacker just runs nodes?

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04:59 <gmaxwell> ISP monitoring obviously needs encryption as even the most minimal step. I'm mostly talking about the known half dozen or so commercial services that are actively attacking the network now...

05:02 <Dizzle> So, when the unwanted observer connects to node A, they effectively don't know about its effective connection to node B if A isn't peered to B?

05:04 <gmaxwell> They wouldn't even know it was a connection to B necessarily even if they were paird to B...

05:04 <gmaxwell> and if they detected that they might just assume that B was just a different network address for A.

05:05 <gmaxwell> Some people have previously suggested having multiple mempools e.g. for different peers, MITMing connections is a resource cheap way to do that. Your 'other mempool' is just someone elses node.

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05:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: it may interact with p2p logic that distinguishes between outging and incoming connections

05:10 <sipa> as they both think it's an incoming connection

05:13 <sipa> though i guess you could pair up an incoming connection with an outgoing one

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05:23 <mappum_> gmaxwell: "known half dozen or so commercial services that are actively attacking the network now" - these aren't known to me, can you elaborate?

05:24 <mappum_> i've always assumed it was too hard to figure out where txs originate even with a lot of peering

05:38 <gleb> gmaxwell: Do you think this approach won't change the reasoning about connecting to different net groups and related vulnerability mitigations?

05:43 <gleb> There is a non-zero probability of connecting to 8 proxies, and now you have to trust them that if they notice you being eclipsed they drop that connection (perhaps this kind of trust is acceptable because it's almost the same to what we already have).

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14:25 <kanzure> middle mode could get your node banned if a peer feeds you bad data that you don't check (and verification adds delay)

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15:38 <kanzure> this seems to suffer from network topology issues and bandwidth increasing with the number of hops https://medium.com/@SaitoOfficial/eliminating-51-attacks-in-proof-of-work-blockchains-e95c60d6085a

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15:46 <gmaxwell> gleb: that was why my first description suggested out-- doesn't have the inbound could turn out to be forwarded property. But I think in practice it wouldn't matter.

15:47 <gmaxwell> kanzure: I think we'll eliminate banning more or less entirely in not too long. It's not very useful.

15:48 <gmaxwell> but even ignoring that, you only get at most one ban per time you do it... so just don't do enough of it that banning would be an issue.

15:48 <gmaxwell> You could indeed validate everything but I think that would make the implementation a lot less easy.

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15:52 <kanzure> what is the alternative to banning?

15:52 <gmaxwell> Not banning.

15:53 <gmaxwell> You can just disconnect the peer. Banning doesn't accomplish much more than that.

15:53 <gmaxwell> a broken but non-malicious peer, you're not going to end up connected to again soon..

15:54 <gmaxwell> and a malicious peer can just reconnect under another IP.

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15:54 <gmaxwell> Esp with v6 it's trivial for an attacker to just change addresses, and tor inbound doesn't even have an address to ban.

15:58 <kanzure> alright

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