sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<tromp>
is there a good discussion of height locks vs time locks somewhere? like pros and cons of each?
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<kanzure>
height locks usually disfavored due to reorg problems
<kanzure>
no maybe i'm thinking of blockhash locks
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<nsh>
what is time except as measured by blocks...
<nsh>
is there another trustfree distributed clock tick than difficulty-adjusted block discovery?
<arubi>
radioactive decay? :P
<midnightmagic>
nsh: pulsar observations?
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<nsh>
there's nothing about someone reporting that they've detected a decay event that can convince me they aren't lying
<nsh>
hmm, or maybe there is idk but not immediately obviously
<nsh>
if someone gives me a hash i can determine roughly how much work it took :)
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<midnightmagic>
Oh. You mean post-hoc optional verification?
<nsh>
afaik there's no other method than the production of a leading-zero [or equivalent arithmetic rareness property] that proves the elapse of time via the proxy of having hashed a lot
<nsh>
i tried to figure out another way involving the propagation of information [c] with zooko once but didn't quite figure it out and it'd involve satellites probably
<Alanius>
I think that argument might be assuming a secure hash function.
<nsh>
sure
<nsh>
well, it's assuming a weaker property (that it's not possible to turn a hash output into a lower hash output except by trying again randomly)
<nsh>
but nobody knows how to separate that property from the assumed security properties of cryptographically strong hash functions
<nsh>
afaik
<nsh>
and in bitcoin you only allowed to vary the nonce modulo the malleability issues that are now largely fixed
<nsh>
oh and whatever stuff people use for signalling and your block reward address
<midnightmagic>
pulsar observation just requires local equipment. I think it's doable..?
<nsh>
i suppose a triplet of timestamp, right accession and declination for a pulsar event could be corroborated by others monitoring the same region of sky
<nsh>
but i don't think it's as neat as the hash lottery
<midnightmagic>
pulsar are super stable. irregular observation can just be extrapolated.
<cjd>
I wonder if there is some kind of quantum computing puzzle which is inherently serial, takes the same amount of time no matter how many devices you throw at it...
<cjd>
the radioactive decay comment gave me the idea
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<midnightmagic>
cjd: gwern has a page about timelocking which (I think) overview almost all of the known ways of doing it and which references anti-parallel algos..
<midnightmagic>
Lots of references in there to actual papers, and from there you can just look at those papers' forward cite trees
<cjd>
good synposys there
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<cjd>
It would have been neat if there was some trick to encrypt a message behind the PoW of some block in the future
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<cjd>
so someone could attempt to crack it directly, but it would be much easier to just wait for the miners to reach that block and crack it as part of finding the block
<cjd>
However, one would have to take care in designing such a PoW so that miners can't mine future blocks and thereby put together a 51% attack over the course of weeks or months
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<nsh>
had an idea thinking about scrypt/PBKDF2/etc: having cryptocurrency mining pools allow people to use their 'excess hashing capacity' as very strong KDFs
<nsh>
as in, every hash that doesn't win PoW is kinda wasted to them, but if they are chained and tied to a particular password input then it's useful to others
<nsh>
(the password input can just be a dummy transaction, and the nominal (but potentially zero) fee for it is how you pay for the service)
<nsh>
all the miners would have to do is accept the inputs as tx and chain their hashing which should be costfree to them
<nsh>
oh no but to repeat it you'd need a list of their nonces or something else out
<gmaxwell>
thats not useful as a normal kdf because... right, you wouldn't get the same results if you ran it twice.
* nsh
nods
<nsh>
it could be made repeatable by changing incrementing nonce to a chained one
<nsh>
but would require more convincing of mining software to be changed
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<cjd>
> changing incrementing nonce to a chained one <-- how would you go about verifying that ?
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<gmaxwell>
nsh: uh assuming they weren't mining at all anymore...
<nsh>
not sure i understand sorry
<nsh>
cjd, picking a new nonce deterministically from the output of the hash that didn't pass PoW
<gmaxwell>
nsh: if there is _any_ data going into the hash that isn't the same the result won't be the same.
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<gmaxwell>
nsh: mining requires including different block headers, transactions, etc.
<nsh>
right, the problem is miners are changing inputs as new tx hit mempool or new blocks discovered
<nsh>
so it's a hot mess really
<nsh>
and my idea was a non-starter perhaps :)
<nsh>
except redundant miners could be used in places wiht excess energy
<nsh>
but you'd still have to convince someone to maintain them etc
<cjd>
IMO there's something like the 2nd law of thermodynamics except it says that any time the PoW can be changed by humans (i.e. useful PoW), miners can use that to gain unfair advantage
<gmaxwell>
nsh: your idea just doesn't make sense, and I think you aren't seeing why yet.
* nsh
nods
<gmaxwell>
nsh: forget changing tx... like today I'm trying to mine a totally different chain than tomorrow...
<nsh>
right
<gmaxwell>
so what you're thinking of would only work if I stopped mining.
<gmaxwell>
Then it would work, though there are complications with existing mining hardware, as they kinda skip nonces 'at random' to to hardware reasons.
<nsh>
ah
<cjd>
This idea of using indistinguishability obfuscation to create a black box which opens when K valid bitcoin hashes have passed is a really amusing one though
* nsh
nods
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<ruby32>
lopp: If you recall, I suggested looking into Veriblock when examining OP_RETURN. It turns out a significant number of BTC transactions are Veriblock's
<ruby32>
Oh, he's not here
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