sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
bitcoin-wizards5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitcoin-wizards5 has quit [Client Quit]
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Client Quit]
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wildermind has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
rusty2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Jbaczuk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Client Quit]
riclas has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
AaronvanW has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Belkaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Dizzle>
nice, thanks for sharing
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Quit: Leaving]
rusty2 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Dizzle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has quit [Changing host]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
PdeClown has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has quit [Changing host]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
setpill has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rafalcpp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rafalcpp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kayront_ is now known as kayront
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
mn3monic has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jungly has joined #bitcoin-wizards
marcoagner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Client Quit]
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tombusby has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
riclas has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ragi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ragi has quit [Client Quit]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has quit [Changing host]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
phwalkr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Quit: Leaving]
maluk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
maluk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
setpill has quit [Quit: o/]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Client Quit]
michaelsdunn1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
michaelsdunn1 has quit [Changing host]
michaelsdunn1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jungly has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
son0p has quit [Quit: leaving]
<uiuc-slack>
<stonecoldpat> is there any writeup for the motivation why the network’s topology is hidden?
<uiuc-slack>
<stonecoldpat> (hi btw ^^)
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gleb>
"Timing analysis for inferring the topology of the bitcoin peer-to-peer network." makes this point, vaguely though...
<sipa>
knowing network topology makes it easier to perform eclipse attacks or partitioning attacks
<uiuc-slack>
<stonecoldpat> if we had something like dandelion would that still be an issue?
<uiuc-slack>
<stonecoldpat> i guess it would make personal-targeted attacks harder, but individual nodes easier
<uiuc-slack>
<sr-gi> sipa: Doesn't not knowing the topology also make hard to spot if those king of attacks are being performed?
<gleb>
I don't think Dandelion helps with any of those attacks.
<gleb>
Increasing the connectivity would help :)
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gleb>
Revealing the topology brings a different security paradigm which requires a lot of extra reasoning. This actually might make sense if we have high connectivity, but now it seems dangerous. I need to think more about it.
<gleb>
I'm afraid that revealing the topology may even make dandelion weaker (or make the implementation more complicated)
<uiuc-slack>
<sr-gi> I think revealing the topology seems easier than it is in practice tbh. How can we be sure that a node doesn't lie about its neighborhood? Basically, how can we prove that a link between two nodes exist?
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<gleb>
I guess you are aware about at least 3 papers which attempt to do this with transaction relay tricks? :)
<uiuc-slack>
<sr-gi> Sure, I'm taking about having an open topology by design, not using addrprobe, tx accumulation or txprobe
<gleb>
Ah, right. Well, if you justify why nodes should reveal their peers (to make network stronger) and prove that it won't deanonymize their txs, then why not. For example, right now nodes use getaddr message. But yeah, I doubt you can/should 100% rely on that information.
tnkflx has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Krellan has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
09:23:22 < uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> sipa: Doesn't not knowing the topology also make hard to spot if those king of attacks are being performed?
<gmaxwell>
... no, the attacker would just lie about the topology.
<gmaxwell>
Making the topology visible is essentially worthless for legitimate usage for that reason -- even to the limited extent that you could legitimatly use the topology to some worthwhile end, parties could lie about or maniupulate it, creating vulnerablities out of those features.
<gmaxwell>
so for example, I once saw a paper that proposed having nodes share their connection information to allow them to build build a miner rooted minimum (latency) spanning trees for distributing blocks. Attacker says, "sweet, I just claim I'm connected to everyone with really low latency, get myself stuck right at the top of the trees, and then don't forward my compeitions blocks"
rusty has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
PdeClown has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has quit [Changing host]
PdeClown has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PdeClown has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
sr_gi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sr_gi has quit [Client Quit]
<uiuc-slack>
<sr-gi> gmaxwell: that’s my biggest concern so far, trying to have a known topology doesn’t seem to work since “knowing the topology” is too big of an assumption (i.e. can’t find a way of proving that the info provided by some node about its neighbors is correct). At least not without making the whole approach way more complex, and I’m not even sure if it’s possible
<uiuc-slack>
<sr-gi> What makes me wonder if the only way of probing the network is without the nodes knowing the are being probed
<gmaxwell>
in any case, I don't know if it was clear from the above the spectrum of attacks that are interesting. E.g. if you can learn the network topology completely, you can find a min-cut that splits hashrate in half, and direct a multi gbps DDOS at a small number of nodes in that min-cut, and do a lot more damage than if you knew less about the topology.
<nsh>
(in fairness this applies to BGP too (network partitioning by cascading route failure through a[n adaptive] min-cut) and the internet so far hasn't suffered a large partition; otoh attacks have not been as directly monetizable in the past)
<gmaxwell>
BGP doesn't actually give you complete global information though, at least.
<gmaxwell>
Because dominated paths don't get shared.
<gmaxwell>
So, for example, you might see that network X reaches network Y via level 3. But unless you have a view into X's ibgp, you can't really tell that it's the only way they can reach Y. So if you successfully RST attack the bgp session between X and level3, perhaps all that does is cause some route churn.
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tombusby has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
michaelsdunn1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]