sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2091860.msg49574549#msg49574549 I posted some pictures of my bitcoin sat rx setup.
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<Dizzle> nice, thanks for sharing
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<uiuc-slack> <stonecoldpat> is there any writeup for the motivation why the network’s topology is hidden?
<uiuc-slack> <stonecoldpat> (hi btw ^^)
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<gleb> "Timing analysis for inferring the topology of the bitcoin peer-to-peer network." makes this point, vaguely though...
<sipa> knowing network topology makes it easier to perform eclipse attacks or partitioning attacks
<uiuc-slack> <stonecoldpat> if we had something like dandelion would that still be an issue?
<uiuc-slack> <stonecoldpat> i guess it would make personal-targeted attacks harder, but individual nodes easier
<uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> sipa: Doesn't not knowing the topology also make hard to spot if those king of attacks are being performed?
<gleb> I don't think Dandelion helps with any of those attacks.
<gleb> Increasing the connectivity would help :)
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<gleb> Revealing the topology brings a different security paradigm which requires a lot of extra reasoning. This actually might make sense if we have high connectivity, but now it seems dangerous. I need to think more about it.
<gleb> I'm afraid that revealing the topology may even make dandelion weaker (or make the implementation more complicated)
<uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> I think revealing the topology seems easier than it is in practice tbh. How can we be sure that a node doesn't lie about its neighborhood? Basically, how can we prove that a link between two nodes exist?
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<gleb> I guess you are aware about at least 3 papers which attempt to do this with transaction relay tricks? :)
<uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> Sure, I'm taking about having an open topology by design, not using addrprobe, tx accumulation or txprobe
<gleb> Ah, right. Well, if you justify why nodes should reveal their peers (to make network stronger) and prove that it won't deanonymize their txs, then why not. For example, right now nodes use getaddr message. But yeah, I doubt you can/should 100% rely on that information.
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<gmaxwell> 09:23:22 < uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> sipa: Doesn't not knowing the topology also make hard to spot if those king of attacks are being performed?
<gmaxwell> ... no, the attacker would just lie about the topology.
<gmaxwell> Making the topology visible is essentially worthless for legitimate usage for that reason -- even to the limited extent that you could legitimatly use the topology to some worthwhile end, parties could lie about or maniupulate it, creating vulnerablities out of those features.
<gmaxwell> so for example, I once saw a paper that proposed having nodes share their connection information to allow them to build build a miner rooted minimum (latency) spanning trees for distributing blocks. Attacker says, "sweet, I just claim I'm connected to everyone with really low latency, get myself stuck right at the top of the trees, and then don't forward my compeitions blocks"
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<uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> gmaxwell: that’s my biggest concern so far, trying to have a known topology doesn’t seem to work since “knowing the topology” is too big of an assumption (i.e. can’t find a way of proving that the info provided by some node about its neighbors is correct). At least not without making the whole approach way more complex, and I’m not even sure if it’s possible
<uiuc-slack> <sr-gi> What makes me wonder if the only way of probing the network is without the nodes knowing the are being probed
<gmaxwell> in any case, I don't know if it was clear from the above the spectrum of attacks that are interesting. E.g. if you can learn the network topology completely, you can find a min-cut that splits hashrate in half, and direct a multi gbps DDOS at a small number of nodes in that min-cut, and do a lot more damage than if you knew less about the topology.
<nsh> (in fairness this applies to BGP too (network partitioning by cascading route failure through a[n adaptive] min-cut) and the internet so far hasn't suffered a large partition; otoh attacks have not been as directly monetizable in the past)
<gmaxwell> BGP doesn't actually give you complete global information though, at least.
<gmaxwell> Because dominated paths don't get shared.
<gmaxwell> So, for example, you might see that network X reaches network Y via level 3. But unless you have a view into X's ibgp, you can't really tell that it's the only way they can reach Y. So if you successfully RST attack the bgp session between X and level3, perhaps all that does is cause some route churn.
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