sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
TheoStorm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheoStorm has quit [Client Quit]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has quit [Read error: No route to host]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adlai has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
adlai has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
deusexbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
erwanou_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
err0ne has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
erwanou has joined #bitcoin-wizards
err0ne has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
booyah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
booyah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
setpill has joined #bitcoin-wizards
setpill has quit [Client Quit]
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
setpill has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
jungly has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: No route to host]
CryptoDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty_ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
mappum_ has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
laurentmt has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
schmidty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vtnerd has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
vtnerd has joined #bitcoin-wizards
son0p has quit [Quit: leaving]
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
<andytoshi>
in fairness to them, they claim to have done the review in 7 hours
<andytoshi>
i'll check on all the null pointer stuff, thanks. at first glance it looks like it's all in the grin extensions
setpill has quit [Quit: o/]
<kanzure>
who asks for a 7 hour libsecp256k1-zkp review..?
<kanzure>
at minimum you need at least 8 hours!
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<drexl>
aparently some anonymous donor paid them directly
<andytoshi>
no issues apply to my code. thanks for the heads up
son0p has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<sarang>
kudos andytoshi
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
echonaut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echonaut has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phwalkr has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
schmidty has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
riclas has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<riclas>
hey guys, here's an MsC work done by a student of my department. let me know what you think, good and bad.
<riclas>
it's published in an academic conference soon
echonaut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echonaut has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aguycalled has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
aguycalled has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jungly has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
schmidty has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
schmidty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
schmidty has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
schmidty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds]
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cliffhanger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cliffhanger_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cliffhanger_ has quit [Client Quit]
Cliffhanger has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CryptoDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zenton has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<gmaxwell>
riclas: Thanks for the link. I haven't read it carefully yet, but a few questions come to mind. Let me state my understanding of the idea behind it.
<gmaxwell>
Nodes relay transactions to a small number of peers and observe, per peer they relayed to, how long before the transaction shows up in a block. They use this information to form a ranking on peers, and then adaptively forward to only the top O(log(nodes)) plus a small number of random additional peers (to improve robustness and explore graph changes).
<gmaxwell>
My initial impression is that this would be really harmful for block propagation latency, since it does not particularly attempt to get all likely-to-be-mined transactions to all nodes in advance of the block... only really attempts to get transactions to miners.
<gmaxwell>
I guess I'd have to play with a simulator to say more, but I get the impression that this approach would only learn its topology rather slowly (since blocks are found relatively slowly) and would perhaps be pretty exposed to one shot topology changes... e.g. some node that connects to all the miners and a bunch of other nodes... making them all good forwarders.. then goes away.
CryptoDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
but it's very interesting, without these results I wouldn't have expected this kind of approach to work well at all, just due the signal being so noisy, even in simulation.
<gmaxwell>
realted but not in response; Gleb, pieter, and myself have a paper submitted for publication on relay enhancements based on ideas explained at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377345.0 (but greatly fleshed out and refined). Though perhaps they could be further improved by adaptie ranking.
<gmaxwell>
adaptive*
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mappum_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drexl has quit [Quit: drexl]
<riclas>
thanks for the feedback i will relay it, i'm not directly involved in it and i will be afk for some time. but at least it is useful simulation, which an MsC is good for :)
dgenr8 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vtnerd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vtnerd has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
DeanGuss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<gleb>
It seems like this protocol has an ultimate trade-off: sacrificing robustness to directed attacks on bottlenecks (top-ranked nodes) for relay efficiency?
<gleb>
It also brings an incentive for miners to run top-ranked nodes and slow down competing blocks
<gleb>
No, I withdraw my last message, because I think it's not correct :)
<gmaxwell>
well, the raning is based on actual performance for txn showing up in blocks. So if you run a top ranked node then stop forwarding txn to other miners, you won't stay top ranked.
<gmaxwell>
there was another paper (that AFAICT got pulled) which basically suggested sharing topology data and computing a miner rooted minimum spanning tree, then sending txn only along it. But by its nature it had a min-cut of 1, and also required perfect (accurate) visiblity. I think basically thats the idea you get if you take the idea in this paper and abandon security as a goal.
<gleb>
Also, with these approaches, I think miners will start to pull blanked over themselves (by putting their nodes at different parts of the network), which will result in flooding close to what we have today? Because this routing policy will be confused
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gleb>
pull the blanket* (I'm not sure that's the right idiom in English...)
<gmaxwell>
gleb: I think it would result in that but not for the reason I think you're thinking.
<gmaxwell>
I think that with this in place miners would want to all agressively flood any transaction they accepted, to avoid the propagation latency hit from the network's failure to propagate the transactions everywhere.
<gmaxwell>
any miner that didn't would expirence an elevated orphaning rate.
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<gmaxwell>
gleb: where I think we might gain something useful out of it in for the erlay work is perhaps using a similar hurestic to shape the low fanout relay. (e.g. if you low-fanout a txn to a node, but find yourself transfering it a lot via retcon, thats peer wasn't a very good choice)
<gleb>
Nobody yet shown me why my idea of low-fanout along public network *only* is bad, so I'm sticking to that until someone does. And in that case it's only 10% of the network, so not much savings with that policy.
<gleb>
If we switch to low-fanout to both in and out, then yes, it might make more sense.
<gmaxwell>
gleb: among other things there is actually no clear idea in the network between a "public node" and not, thats an artifact that is visible to an all seeing simulator... but an indivigual node in the network doesn't know if its publicly reachable or not.
<gleb>
I achieve that by flooding to outbound connections only (and not flooding what's reconciled), so it ends up flooding only through public
<gmaxwell>
(though I totally agree that special ranking is likely to be a small improvement. ... though also you could see your public hurestic for low fanout as just being a special non-adaptive but really good case of that)
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gleb>
I'll talk to people at FC in a week and perhaps give a short talk there, and start to reaching out on the Internet shortly after that I guess.
<gleb>
gmaxwell: "among other things": I would love to hear more concerns :)
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]