sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
This looks basically like a Merkle Mountain Range (petertodd), adding skip lists.
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<mappum>
what's the likelihood of OP_MUL getting enabled? it would be useful to me for a weighted multisig (e.g. <pub_a> OP_CHECKSIG <weight_a> OP_MUL OP_ADD ...)
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<sipa>
for all intents and purposes, it does not exist
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<sipa>
so the question isn't about enabling it, but adding it
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<mappum>
sipa: hypothetically if it had a BIP and implementation could it be part of the same bundle of changes for the future bip-taproot deployment (IIRC SIGHASH_NOINPUT would be a part of that bundle as well)?
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<sipa>
mappum: no reason why they should interact at all
<sipa>
bip341/342 contain a bunch of changes, but i think there is motivation for each of them why it's preferable to combine them over having independently activatable proposals
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<tromp>
bsm117532: MMR additions are O(1) amortized, so not much improvement possible in practice
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<yanmaani>
tromp: Aren't the storage requirements far lower?
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<tromp>
similar if using MMR just as accumulator
<tromp>
MMR stores O(log n) peaks
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<jeremyrubin>
mappum: I think what you want (OP_MUL) in that example can be emulated with 0 <w> <pk> CHECKSIG OP_DROP OP_ADD. If checkisg is true, then <0> gets dropped, if checksig is false, then <w> gets dropped, leaving desired value on the stack.
<jeremyrubin>
You can even generalize this gadget for composition like:
<jeremyrubin>
Ah I'm missing an OP_ROLL in my script
<jeremyrubin>
And then terminating with a threshold check
<jeremyrubin>
What's nice is your <pk> checksig can be any gadget that returns 0 or 1
<jeremyrubin>
Original script should be 0 <w> <pk> CHECKSIG OP_ROLL OP_DROP OP_ADD in case unclear
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<mappum>
jeremyrubin: not sure but i think that might come out to the same size as what i have now, which is 0 <pk> OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF <w> OP_ADD OP_ENDIF ...
<mappum>
(except actually for the first one I'm doing `<pk> OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF <w> OP_ELSE 0 OP_ENDIF` but i think starting with the 0 would be 1 byte smaller
<mappum>
oh btw I forgot the OP_SWAP in there before the CHECKSIG
<sipa>
just use taproot leaves
<sipa>
to encode your supported combinations
<mappum>
planning on it :)
<mappum>
except, there will be too many combinations so i will still have this script as a fallback leaf
<sipa>
in that case you don't really care about its efficiency i expect
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<mappum>
i expect it to execute the key path 99% of the time, which will be a musig of the combination i expect to happen most often
<sipa>
right
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<mappum>
has anyone ever considered making a taproot futures market, to let the market judge the likelihood of when taproot will activate for different future dates?
<sipa>
i think that would create terrible incentives
<mappum>
hm interesting, i guess you would be the person most suited to "insider" trade it, however that only makes the market more accurate at predicting
<sipa>
i'm intentionally staying out of the debate on activation, so no :)
<mappum>
what terrible incentives do you mean? undue pressure to finish it on a tight schedule?
<sipa>
yes, these things should progress at whatever rate the technical community can handle
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<mappum>
i agree, but also i don't think the market would really control the actions of the developers. it would mostly be traders observing the progress