sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<alice21>
re mempool/fork issues with moving sig verification off-chain (stark proof on-chain), wouldn’t it be possible for miners to repeatedly discard and generate new zkps, somewhat similar to how current mempool cashing works?
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<zmnscpxj_>
the critical path is when *another* miner mines a new block. the time to construct the new zkp is time you are mining on the previous block
<zmnscpxj_>
this exacerbates the various centralization pressures on mining
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<zmnscpxj_>
your alternative is to use a trivially empty zkp in the meantime i.e. spy-mining and generating empty blocks
<alice21>
thought of that too
<zmnscpxj_>
empty blocks are.... something of a waste
<zmnscpxj_>
and can only be paid for with subsidy, not fees
<zmnscpxj_>
as the subsidy drops and the fees become a larger portion of the rewards, the less desirable that is
<zmnscpxj_>
and the less desirable complex proof generation is
<alice21>
should depend on the extra fees included in the proofs as well, they should make it worth it at scale
<zmnscpxj_>
that means it is undesirable to create a block that contains a trivial empty zkp
<zmnscpxj_>
meaning your miners are spinning on an undesirable block
<zmnscpxj_>
while the miner that got the most recent block is NOT
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<alice21>
but that only applies to the seconds after receiving the latest block, before generating the first new proof
<zmnscpxj_>
that "only" is why efforts like FIBRE exist
<zmnscpxj_>
it should apply to the ***milliseconds*** after somebody else discovers a block
<zmnscpxj_>
once you start talking about seconds, miners start centralizing like crazy
<alice21>
not sure I follow, seconds relate to propagation time in this case?
<zmnscpxj_>
what matters is the time from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block
<zmnscpxj_>
it does not matter if that time is about propagation delay or not
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<alice21>
but measured as propagation time, it applies to the arbitrary time span inbetween blocks
<zmnscpxj_>
if I am not mining on top of the latest block, I am losing precious time and I am now tempted to centralize with other miners
<zmnscpxj_>
....
<zmnscpxj_>
*shrug*
<zmnscpxj_>
I suggest looking up *why* FIBRE exists.
<alice21>
link?
<zmnscpxj_>
propagation time is just part of the time from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block
<alice21>
this still applies to propagation, which wouldn't be affected, since blocks without proofs would still be valid?
<zmnscpxj_>
.........
<zmnscpxj_>
What I am pointing out.....
<zmnscpxj_>
.... is that we worry about propagation....
<zmnscpxj_>
....because if the time it takes from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block ....
<zmnscpxj_>
.... is more than a few dozen milliseconds....
<zmnscpxj_>
....miners start centralizing like crazy
<zmnscpxj_>
adding a zkp that takes *seconds* to compute increases the time from (1) to (2)
<zmnscpxj_>
do you understand now?
<zmnscpxj_>
alternately I can improve the time (1) to (2) by not constructing a zkp
<zmnscpxj_>
and instead not get fees from the zkp construction
<zmnscpxj_>
in which case I still lose out on fees
<zmnscpxj_>
relative to who got the new block
<zmnscpxj_>
meaning mining becomes a race, not a lottry
<zmnscpxj_>
which is what we want to avoid
<alice21>
this makes more sense
<alice21>
can you elaborate on why it would be less lottery?
<zmnscpxj_>
yes
<zmnscpxj_>
we want mining to be a lottery, not a race
<zmnscpxj_>
because the miner who got the new block knows all the transaction that got into that block
<zmnscpxj_>
and can pre-prepare the zkp of the next block before discovering the current one (it knows what other txes are still remaining in the mempool after its current block)
<zmnscpxj_>
so when it gets the current block
<zmnscpxj_>
it can immediately work on the next block
<zmnscpxj_>
and while working on the next block, it can pre-prepare the next next block zkp
<zmnscpxj_>
while you are still reading the block, updating your mempool, and generating a new zkp
<zmnscpxj_>
that miner thus gets more for its hashpower
<alice21>
one possible approach to mitigate this might be some form of distributed proof generation, with a lottery element in it
<zmnscpxj_>
and if it is larger than most other miners, this exacerbates
<zmnscpxj_>
any small advantage accumulates
<zmnscpxj_>
then that is what is needed
<zmnscpxj_>
though I would also like to point out that in general, more complicated means more attack surface
<alice21>
distributed proof generation would be optimal for energy efficiency as well
<alice21>
for sure, it would complicate the attack surface..
<zmnscpxj_>
yes
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<zmnscpxj_>
and mining is really something you do not want to have an attack surface
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<alice21>
mempool is already complicated though
<zmnscpxj_>
yes
<zmnscpxj_>
that is why there are nasty mempool attacks on lightning, xref. ariard etc. work
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<alice21>
with sub-second proof generation time for >1k transactions, the lottery/race balance would only be slightly affected
<alice21>
faster verification would make propagation faster
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<zmnscpxj_>
possibly
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<zmnscpxj_>
but if you have support for non-zkp blocks, large miners can then use that to attack small miners.
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<alice21>
yes, small miners would probably benefit from shared proof generation
<zmnscpxj_>
?
<zmnscpxj_>
what I mean is, if the propagation of with-zkp blocks is ultimately faster
<zmnscpxj_>
then large miners can use non-zkp blocks to slow down small miners
<alice21>
gotcha, but they wouldn't have much incentive for this behaviour?
<zmnscpxj_>
not sure. you needs someone who is more expert on block-withholding attacks than I am
<alice21>
boils down to fees in zkp-blocks. if they are sufficient, it should make slowing down small miners with non-zkp blocks less profitable
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<yanmaani>
zmanian_: One solution might be to somehow require miners to make available to their pool the txn merkle tree, so everyone can take the block as provided to miners and swap out the address.
<yanmaani>
'spy mining'
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