#bitcoin-wizards on 2020-09-10 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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15:55 <andytoshi> sipa: pls join ##miniscript

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16:44 <elichai2> maybe this is a better place. why does bitcoin headers have the `bits` field? what does the whole compact representation complexity gives us?

16:46 <sipa> elichai2: before headers-first sync it was useful

16:47 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/greg-maxwell/greg-maxwell-bitcoin-core-testing/

16:47 <elichai2> sipa: how?

16:47 <sipa> as it enabled a heuristic that let you calculate that a particular header has too low difficulty to possibly be part of a chain that beats the current one

16:48 <sipa> elichai2: with the nBits field, you can verify whether a header matches its own claimed difficulty

16:48 <sipa> even without having its ancestors

16:48 <sipa> of course, it doesn't let you verify that that block has the correct difficulty, but there are bounds on what the correct difficulty can be

16:48 <elichai2> well if it's malicious he'll just put a low difficulty value there?

16:48 <elichai2> oh using bounds hmm

16:48 <elichai2> did core really used bounds on this?

16:48 <sipa> yes

16:49 <sipa> it'd be trivial to spam someone with low-difficulty headers otherwise

16:49 <sipa> the difficulty can at most drop 4x every 2016 blocks

16:49 <sipa> eh, sorry, spam low-difficulty *blocks*

16:50 <sipa> but since headers-first sync, blocks are never downloaded before having the headers (and their ancestors) all verified

16:50 <sipa> so since then, i believe there is no strict use for having headers encode their own difficulty

16:50 <sipa> doesn't hurt though

16:50 <elichai2> you lose block/header space :P

16:51 <sipa> ok, sure

16:51 <sipa> though if that was really an issue, it could be stored implicitly

16:51 <sipa> (or stored once for every 2016 blocks)

16:51 <elichai2> jk, I asked because of a rust-bitcoin user confusion on pow-limits etc, that he used target values directly without doing a roundtrip to-from compact bits

16:52 <sipa> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34155/is-it-necessary-for-blocks-to-record-the-nbits-difficulty-parameter

16:52 <sipa> a bit outdated, though

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16:56 <elichai2> easier to store locally a single uint256 but sure, thanks :)

16:56 <sipa> that sounds orthogonal

17:00 <elichai2> SPV nodes, instead of using the bits to verify the difficulty of headers you can have a uint256 of the last target and calculate from that past/future targets (unless I misunderstood harding )

17:02 <sipa> for the purpose of verification you don't need to store the difficulty at all

17:02 <sipa> (except once per 2016 blocks)

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17:27 <yanmaani> the bigger question is why the difficulty doesn't start at 1

17:27 <yanmaani> outside of regtest

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17:28 <sipa> it does on mainnet

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17:37 <yanmaani> but not on testnet?

17:37 <sipa> i think on testnet too

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17:38 <sipa> ah no, regtest has significantly lower difficulty than 1

17:38 <yanmaani> consensus.fPowAllowMinDifficultyBlocks = false;

17:39 <sipa> that's the special testnet rule

17:39 <sipa> allowing difficulty=1 blocks after 20 minutes, regarldess of previous difficulty

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17:42 <yanmaani> But the first Bitcoin blocks still begin with more than 1 zero

17:48 <sipa> difficulty = ratio between maximum permissive target and minimum target

17:48 <sipa> where minimum target is 0x00000000ffff0000....

17:49 <sipa> difficulty is not "the number of zeroes"

17:50 <sipa> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/85896/mining-difficulty-and-leading-zeros/85897

17:51 <sipa> and it's certainly not related to a block header's hash; it's related to how high that hash was allowed to be

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18:07 <yanmaani> Yeah, but why is the minimum target not 1?

18:08 <sipa> trivial DoSD

18:08 <sipa> early in the chain

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18:08 <yanmaani> wouldn't it ramp up very quickly though?

18:10 <sipa> maybe? who cares?

18:10 <sipa> even a single CPU in 2009 could mine a block at difficulty 1 in a short time

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18:14 <yanmaani> I guess it makes mining easier

18:15 <sipa> you mean harder?

18:16 <yanmaani> no, easier. If you know it always needs to be below 0x00000000ffff0000, you can do a quick check

18:16 <sipa> right

18:16 <sipa> i believe that's what ASICs do

18:16 <yanmaani> instead of doing (if hash < target {...}), you can do (if hash < min_target && hash < target {})

18:17 <sipa> doing a check for the highest 32 bits (or even more) being zero in silicon, and doing the full check in software

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