sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<abyssangel>
hello
<abyssangel>
hello:)
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<abyssdemon>
hello
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<adam3us>
roconnor BlueMatt sanket1729 would be interested to discuss general bitcoin covenant designs
<adam3us>
liquid has OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK https://blockstream.com/2016/11/02/en-covenants-in-elements-alpha/ and more recently Dmitry Petukhov @dmpsim with some input from Jonas Nick @n1ckler and others was able to find some tricks to push that further and make secured loans using OP_CSFS
<adam3us>
i think it would be interesting and of value to consider the design of a softforkable opcode for bitcoin to enable maybe vaults, and op_ctv as a subset should be buildable with a more generic mechanism.
<adam3us>
and BlueMatt has been talking recently about sharing utxos in a kind of model similar to unilateral withdraw single server "chain" with fraud-proofs. maybe there would be a way to make that also work. i am thinking the fraud proofs are the harder part
<martindale>
adam3us: how much use is OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK seeing in production w/ Liquid? Has anyone used it in real-world services?
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<adam3us>
control assets
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<adam3us>
unrelated roconnor also did some work on making an OP_SHA256 merkle-damgard api, ie so that you can cat more data into a rolling hash context
<roconnor>
not entirely unrelated. ;)
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<roconnor>
Also I think jermey has proposed similar opcode before.
<roconnor>
The best way to do covenants IMHO would be new opcodes post-taproot that implement transaction reflection.
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<adam3us>
yes related (i meant unrelated to the has seen practical use sub-question.)
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<martindale>
roconnor: I tend to agree, will be much more easy to deal with in downstream applications than checksigfromstack
<sanket1729>
roconnor, agreed. Any known downsides of allowing transaction introspection?
<roconnor>
only downside is that then enable covenants, and hard to sanely as a NOP softfork.
<roconnor>
but taproot has OP_SUCCESS softforks instead.
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<dgpv>
btw the covenants used for loans contract only commit to outputs, so would be realizable with OP_CTV
<sanket1729>
What were the objections(if any) to add checksifromstack to bitcoin?
<dgpv>
re transaction introspection I'd say the issue is more footguns due to complexity -> more risks to be locked out of funds, but that is localized to the funds that participate in contracts, risk is entirely on participants
<dgpv>
re csfs vs ctv is that signature check is actually not necessary for the purpose of introspection
<dgpv>
introspection is incidental to the signature check of arbitrary data
<dgpv>
ctv gives limited introspection without costly signature verification
<dgpv>
introspection can be used to incentivize certain protocol changes - create a covenant that allows withdraw of significant amount of bitcoin if the transaction has certain structure that is only possible with certain change in protocol
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<dgpv>
and requires a signature from some known pubkeys of some devs
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<dgpv>
kind-of pseudonimous-sourced bounty for protocol changes
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<dgpv>
"and requires a signature from some known pubkeys of some devs" -- or not publicitly known pubkeys, so that they can collect the bounty without the public knowledge
<dgpv>
although the structure of the covenant will still become visible after spend, so at least the fact of possible incentivization will become public
<dgpv>
same thing is possible on-chain of course, but with much less certainty for the incentivized
<dgpv>
*possible off-chain I meant
<dgpv>
OTOH the same thing is possible with just pre-signed transactions
<dgpv>
so this is not likely a serious argument against covenants
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