andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<copumpkin>
can someone help me understand what the meaning of the input to CLTV means, vs. the nLockTime field? I see the conditions in the BIP, but am not really following why that relationship between the two exists. Trying to understand if it could be used to validate that some externally provided "timestamp" falls within a range
<copumpkin>
the rules seem to force it to be effectively a constant, right?
<copumpkin>
I guess that's not right, I misread a statement about the type to be about the value. But it's still comparing against a constant for the lifetime of the transaction, which doesn't give me the now()-like semantics I was hoping for
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<andytoshi>
copumpkin: the input is the "target" locktime
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<copumpkin>
"Thanks goes to Gregory Maxwell for suggesting that the argument be compared against the per-transaction nLockTime, rather than the current block height and time." <- I guess what I'm not following is why that's more desirable
<roconnor>
It makes script evaluation self-contained and cachable. I.e. whether a script fails or not is only a function of the transaction, and not any other context.
<copumpkin>
fair enough. Are constructs that don't meet that generally considered non-starters?
<roconnor>
Probably. For example, Simplicity is designed to uphold this priniciple.
<roconnor>
And with taproot annex, anything else other contexts you care about would be passed through there.
<roconnor>
I don't know. I might be overstating this.
<andytoshi>
no i think you're right, it'd be a non-starter if you needed external data to validate a transaction
<copumpkin>
yeah, but it seems like that principle would also vastly limit any sort of actually flexible "smart contract" possibilities you might think up in the system
<copumpkin>
smart as long as it's statically knowable, which is basically a very narrow family of contracts
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: it would limit the possibilities to things that were well-defined before transcations were in blocks
<andytoshi>
i'm not sure what you mean by "statically knowable"
<andytoshi>
do you mean computable? ;)
<roconnor>
Taking BIP-115 for example, I think we'd rather do it with an annex item that contains a height/blockhash (fragment) pair, and maybe no script operation at all.
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: so, locktimes actually do look at external data (the current block height). but they do it outside of Script
<andytoshi>
and this is considered ok/within the bitcoin ethos
<andytoshi>
so you can do similar things with the taproot annex, as roconnor is hinting at
<copumpkin>
well, the context was "what if I had an oracle that two parties trusted, that every day publishes a signed and timestamped blob of data asserting some fact that those two parties want to refer to in their contract. How can I refer to such blobs in script?" and I think I can verify the signatures, but I can't meaningfully link those assertions to the timestamp
<copumpkin>
(assume the timestamp is in blockheight or something sensible)
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: so, we actually would like to do this in liquid, and if you try to do it in the "obvious" way where the blockchain checks the timestamp you quickly run into really nasty problems
<andytoshi>
regarding reorg safety and miner censorship incentives
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: but we have an interesting solution to this
<copumpkin>
ooo
<andytoshi>
which is that somebody *cough*blockstream*cough* runs a server that'll sign any hash you give it alongside a current timestamp
<andytoshi>
then in your transaction
<andytoshi>
you get two signatures: one of the current txid+"current time", and another with your meaningful timestamped data
<andytoshi>
and within the script, you check that the timestamps match
<andytoshi>
so the timestamp oracle is (unknowingly) asserting "this transaction was created at this time"
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<andytoshi>
and so then you have a transaction which is statically verifiable but whose validity is unaffected by reorgs/miner censorship/whatever
<copumpkin>
andytoshi: does the somebody need to be predetermined or can it be specified on a per-transaction basis?
<andytoshi>
if you then want the transaction to _expire_ somehow, then you need to do a LN-type system with backout transactions
<copumpkin>
I guess it could be per-transaction if it's just a signature
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: hmmmm, i suppose you could make it "signed by somebody whose pubkey is signed by the parties to the transaction" and get a dynamic system that way
<andytoshi>
but in the scheme i was thinking of it'd be fixed in the scriptpubkey, i.e. fixed at setup time
<andytoshi>
so it is "per transaction"
<copumpkin>
that seems fine
<copumpkin>
my issue is that baking the TTP into the system is a lot more controversial than baking it into the transaction :)
<andytoshi>
ah yes :)
<andytoshi>
we are definitely not proposing to bake any (other) TTP into liquid :)
<copumpkin>
:D
<copumpkin>
what is this scheme you're describing called?
<copumpkin>
can I read more somewhere?
<andytoshi>
and actually ideally the TTP is really unaware of what it is doing here, it's just signing "whatever 32 bytes you give me + current time"
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: uh, it doesn't have a name, i think the first time i've talked abuot it outside of blockstream is right now
<copumpkin>
hah okay
<andytoshi>
but if you think of a catchy name i'm all ears :)
<andytoshi>
and if you can find somebody willing to run this timestamp server that'd be pretty dope
<andytoshi>
it would be nice if we could get somebody who'll be around forever to do it. like a central bank or something ;)
<roconnor>
opentimestamps?
<andytoshi>
ohhh lol i totally forgot that OTS does exactly this
<roconnor>
Actually, I suppose opentimestamp somewhat needs a full node to operate to compare block headers to.
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<roconnor>
otherwise backdating is trivial.
<andytoshi>
roconnor: well it's trivial for the server to backdate
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<andytoshi>
this is a risk inherent to the scheme i've been thinking of
<roconnor>
sure, that's why it such a server is trusted.
<roconnor>
but opentimestamps itself is not trustworthy without a full node behind it.
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<roconnor>
something that you probably don't want to implement with script (yet).
<andytoshi>
roconnor: OTS supports several pluggable timestamp schemes. one is blockheaders
<andytoshi>
but another is just a trusted sig
<andytoshi>
and i _think_ that trusted sig does exactly what we want it to
<roconnor>
Oh.
<roconnor>
That's probably true.
<andytoshi>
normally when you use it you run `ots stamp` and then it gives you a trusted sig ... and the server meanwhile is accumulating a pile of them that it can commit in a transaction
<andytoshi>
then later you run `ots upgrade` to download a proof from the server
<andytoshi>
and the server will say "here, forget my sig, now you can have a merkle proof leading to a blockheader"
<andytoshi>
i mean, you don't actually forget the sig, both of them remain in the OTS proof
<andytoshi>
(I may be forgetting the exact commands here. kanzure may know off the top of his head. but that is the workflow)
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<copumpkin>
andytoshi: so I'm just trying to think through your scheme. Imagine coinbase puts out a stream of signed and timestamped blobs every so often saying "the btcusd price on our exchange is X at time T". Now I make an output that says you can spend it if you provide an andytoshi signature and can provide a coinbase-signed blob saying the price is above $X in the month of July. We implement that by asking for both the coinbase-signed
<copumpkin>
blob and for an OTS-stamped signature of that blob and compare the OTS TS value and the coinbase TS value to see if they're in the same range. What stops you from holding onto the OTS stamp for a year and submitting it a year later?
<copumpkin>
oh, both parties need to be involved in submitting to OTS?
<copumpkin>
I guess OTS would be timestamping some nonce or hash preimage (depending on the rest of the contract presumably) to stop one party from doing that?
<andytoshi>
copumpkin: the OTS timestamp covers the tx
<copumpkin>
oh, okay
<andytoshi>
so you can pre-create a tx, sure .... but then you have to hold onto the UTXOs forever etc
<andytoshi>
also yeah you could strengthen it by having the OTS timestamp cover signatures from both parties, say
<andytoshi>
this all depends on having OP_CAT and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK and then the sky's the limit
<copumpkin>
yeah, feels very checksigfromstack :)
<copumpkin>
even the base assertion ignoring timestamps
<roconnor>
andytoshi says OP_CAT is OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK.
<andytoshi>
i think in the specific blockstream application i was working on recently, we decided to only have the OTS timestamp cover the tx inputs
<andytoshi>
lol roconnor not quite, i don't _think_ i can abuse CAT to sign external data
<andytoshi>
i can just use it to enforce tx data
<roconnor>
oh oops right. *lol* I went too far.
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<copumpkin>
in another example I was distinguishing between "semantically monotonic" external oracle events (like "Prince Philip has died") vs. others like "btcusd on coinbase is $30 at time T". The former seems doable with just checksigfromstack
<copumpkin>
(though some might say $30 is also monotonic :P
<copumpkin>
sorry, no pricetalk in -wizards :)
<andytoshi>
:P
<copumpkin>
so when can I do all this in bitcoin? :) :) :)
<roconnor>
*lol* assasination markets.
<copumpkin>
hey you said it, not me :P
<copumpkin>
it just was top of mind
<roconnor>
no price talk, but "life insurance" is okay. :P
<copumpkin>
anyway, my point was just that some flavors of external oracle assertions once signed will be true forever so you don't really need any timestamp shenanigans around them, and those still seem potentially useful
<roconnor>
Isn't "The bitcoin price was X value sometime in July" a forever true statement?
<copumpkin>
it's more about the flavor of assertions someone wants to make about the underlying truth of it, I guess. If all you want to say is that bitcoin price has hit X on coinbase, then you don't need timestamp shenanigans there either. If you want your contract to specify when Philip dies, then you need timestamps there
<copumpkin>
"If you want your contract to specify when Philip dies" <- man, I'm starting to sound really shady, aren't I
<copumpkin>
anyway, I just want trusted sources of signed+timestamped statements to become commonplace, and then to start integrating them into fun stuff like this :)
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<jeremyrubin>
i have some code that helps with this somewhere
<jeremyrubin>
you can make oracles where you don't just have a fixed key, but you have a publicly derivable PK per question you want to ask for signing
<jeremyrubin>
This makes it easier to make semi-stateless oracles
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