andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<someone235>
Hi, someone knows what is the network delay with FIBRE?
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<instagibbs>
someone235, FIBRE is no longer active
<instagibbs>
for at least half a year
<someone235>
instagibbs: Oh really? Why?
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<instagibbs>
Not going to speak for BlueMatt but I'm guessing a mixture of not wanting to maintain it anymore, and also testing to see if the network even needed it (afaik no one noticed until a month ago)
<aj>
FIBRE is a bunch of patches to bitcoin core, except the license is different (Affero GPL) so they can't actually be merged upstream, and matt got bored porting them forward, i think?
<instagibbs>
blockstream may be maintaining a similar set of patches, aimed at satellite broadcast
<someone235>
Interesting
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<aj>
instagibbs: not in elementsproject, by the looks? (maintaining AGPL stuff internally seems mildly scary)
<BlueMatt>
aj: nah, the patches that mattered really needed to go upstream (specifically parallel compact block fetching, which was critical for fibre). I tried, for years, but they never went anywhere
<BlueMatt>
aj: the actual fibre bits were trivial to maintain/rebase, but sadly other perf stuff needed to go upstream and never did
<queip>
proof-of-space, is there any at all merit in this, or it always requires huge amount of blockchain space to verify? (build binary trees of file sectors, use 2 sectors data + their checksum signed by Alice to challange on-chain Alice to provide their content or be punished for not storing this data as promised)?
<queip>
Bob keeps on his disk F/S * 32B + 32B (F=file size, S=sector size eg 1024, hash, signature) instead of entire file F, and needs to clutter blockspace by around 2*32+2*S to enforce file storage contract when promise broken?
<roconnor>
queip: At least several years ago chia had the problem that PoS doesn't incur any opportunity cost, thus the rational thing for "miners" to do is to simply build upon every tip; which lead to chia
<roconnor>
chia's software tracking at least 5 tips.
<roconnor>
I don't know if that has changed in any way.
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<queip>
roconnor: this is about proof-of-SPACE (storage) right? not of stake?
<roconnor>
yes. Chia is a proof-of-space blockchain.
<roconnor>
(though I suppose the same concern applies to some proof-of-stake proposals.)
<jeremyrubin>
I think you misunderstand queip
<jeremyrubin>
Chia AFAIK has nothing to do with *file* storage
<roconnor>
oh, are there two meaning to proof-of-space.
<jeremyrubin>
As in I don't upload my favorite video to the network
<jeremyrubin>
it has to do with "proof i filled my disk with garbage
<roconnor>
oh man. queips comment makes way more sense now.
<jeremyrubin>
I think that's what the question was?
<jeremyrubin>
And I think bram has some clever algos (although it's too clever for me... oh the beauty of sha256 pow) which are both space and time hard
<queip>
well dunno I guess both filling with user data, and with some trustlessly-fair-random data have similar problem? both use a lot of blockchain space? or?
<jeremyrubin>
Nope! Your "plots" are a bunch of pre-computed results essentially
<queip>
all I know so far about proof of storage/file/whatever is that I think it will be too bloated in blockchain size and network transfers to be really usable
<jeremyrubin>
and it's O(1) storage and time for the network to issue a query against it I think
<roconnor>
okay. I know nothing about proof-of-storage.
<jeremyrubin>
but it requires the prover to store O(N) data (or worse)
<jeremyrubin>
so it's one-sided
<jeremyrubin>
basically imagine if bitcoin private keys had to be 1 terrabyte big
<jeremyrubin>
but public keys could still be 32 bytes
<jeremyrubin>
you'd probably, e.g., make use of public HD derivation a lot ;)
<jeremyrubin>
but it wouldn't bloat the chain space
<jeremyrubin>
AFAIU that's what Chia is doing
<queip>
so... does any version of it make sense, in world where we want full nodes and network/cpu are limited? or not? let's assume for a moment that wallets can be giganting and users live with it
<jeremyrubin>
Contrast to Sia/Filecoin where you need to retreive and return the file
<jeremyrubin>
Where they're similar in mechanism is that Sia/Filecoin I think use similar mechanism for the contract
<jeremyrubin>
BUT where they differ is... you gotta actually get the files to users sometime
<jeremyrubin>
AFAIU these systems are entirely/mostly insecure w.r.t. retreival
<jeremyrubin>
v.s. proof that if you asked reeeeaallly nicely someone would give you the file
<jeremyrubin>
i don't know if taek42 hangs out here anymore but you could ask him
<rubikputer>
jeremyrubin: as I understand it Sia's storage doesn't have anything to do with consensus, it's just a lightning-like contract that users have with hosts and then an challenge at contract expiry
<rubikputer>
IIRC Filecoin miners *do* have to store the data to make their consensus work, but the economics are out of wack so it often makes economical sense for them to just to nuke the files instead of keeping them live
<rubikputer>
I wonder if Sia ever looked into something like proof-of-space considering that hosts would often have unused storage they could commit to that
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