andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<yanmaani>
:( how ugly
<yanmaani>
couldn't he just have required that the sum of all inputs plus the subsidy is greater than or equal to all outputs
<yanmaani>
Have there been any proposals to regulate UTXO set growth by decreasing block weight limit?
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<belcher>
yanmaani yes luke proposed smaller blocks, i proposed increasing the average time between blocks, reducing UTXO set growth wasnt really an explicit aim but both would have that effect
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<jeremyrubin>
yanmaani: even better, utreexo puts the onus of storage for a utxo on the owner at the expense of blocks getting a bit bigger metadata
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<jeremyrubin>
yanmaani: you also might look into using CTV w/ a cooperative close branch (payment pools) for all outputs
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<yanmaani>
belcher: No, I mean decrasing block size if you create an utxo
<yanmaani>
if a block causes utxo set to grow by 200 outputs, the block size goes down by say 200 bytes
<yanmaani>
jeremyrubin: No, I have a proposal, I'm just curious if the idea has been discussed and rejected already
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<jeremyrubin>
yanmaani: it's been discussed, pretty unpopular
<jeremyrubin>
[4/16/21 18:14] <jeremyrubin> yanmaani: even better, utreexo puts the onus of storage for a utxo on the owner at the expense of blocks getting a bit bigger metadata
<jeremyrubin>
:)
<jeremyrubin>
yanmaani: this stuff is all relatively googleable BTW
<kanzure>
ah then my work here is done... back to the shadows.
<yanmaani>
jeremyrubin: That's for across-the-board cuts, though
<yanmaani>
I guess I should just post my proposal to the mailing list and you can roast it. But the idea is to make "new UTXO" have a cost in terms of block size limit.
<yanmaani>
So you can either have a 1MB block with ±0 UTXOs, or a smaller block that bloats the UTXO set, but not both
<rubikputer>
yanmaani: wouldn't this make tx selection for miners significantly more difficult to do?
<sipa>
yanmaani: arguably, we actually have something vaguely like that already through segwit's witness discount (most of the data in txins is witness data, but outputs are purely non-discounted), so relatively speaking, outputs consume more block space already
<sipa>
and this was intentional
<sipa>
specifically to partially rectify the situation that creating outputs is generally cheaper than spending them
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<yanmaani>
rubikputer: no. If a transaction is "artificially" added 4 vB, just increase the size by it
<yanmaani>
e.g. 200 vB transaction, plus 50 vB penalty for creating a new UTXO is 250 vB
<yanmaani>
and calculate fee based on that
<yanmaani>
a 200 vB transaction that consolidates 6 UTXOs to 1 is -5 UTXOs, if it's 50 vB/UTXO then size is 200-250 = -50 vB
<yanmaani>
(iow, the miners should be willing to pay to get to include that transaction)
<sipa>
well you can't actually have transactions with negative weight, at least not without separate alternative limits
<sipa>
or you could construct an infinitely sized block
<sipa>
what you really want is per-block limits on bandwidth/cpu/processing resources, and separately an incentive to keep the utxo set manageable... but that incentive isn't exactly something that needs a per-block limit
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<waxwing>
real_or_random, is https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/824.pdf still the 'latest' word on Coinshuffle++ or has it been updated or superseded since then?
<waxwing>
oh i just remembered 'valueshuffle', that was in a CT context right?
<waxwing>
also are there implementations, ddg-ing shows one in decred, is there other stuff out there that you (or anyone else) knows of?
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<yanmaani>
sipa: You can, you just have to put the cap at 0
<yanmaani>
or decrease block cap by like 5%, then say they can get the old size if they consolidate enough UTXOs
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