<vil>
hella cheap, but you need windows to configure it initially
<purr>
<micahjohnston> my history teacher beg for death
<algor>
I could do a lot with more arrow keys
<vil>
would also be awesome to have a hot-swap row of buttons for code bookmarks
<algor>
like currently arrow keys move between characters
<algor>
if you hold alt they move between words
<algor>
but there's so many things you can move between
<vil>
yeah
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<algor>
like functions, and files, parens, etc
<vil>
OOH
<algor>
what we really need is a set of arrow keys for each
<vil>
you could use a slider switch to adjust arrow-key granularity
<vil>
that would work too
<vil>
I like sliders tho
<algor>
lolol sliders
<purr>
lolol
<vil>
they feel nice ok
<algor>
actually something I've wanted to do is hook up an ipad
<algor>
and use it as a super keyboard extension
<algor>
vil: which brings me back to something else
<algor>
which is unicode
<algor>
I get very frustrated by the limited charset
<algor>
on our keyboards and in programing languages
<algor>
especially
<algor>
<=
<vil>
yes
<algor>
which is a dumb operator
<algor>
it looks like an arrow
<algor>
but it means less than or equal to
<vil>
there is no reason not to have more
<algor>
it's stupid when there's a perfectly good symbol ≤ for it
<vil>
we should be able to use all of the set operators, etc too
<algor>
yeah
<vil>
and fucking emoji as variables if we really want
<algor>
because it's not just syntax
<algor>
notation has a result on how easy things are to understand
<algor>
*has an effect
<algor>
when I see
<algor>
(1 + 2) / (x * (3 + 4))
<algor>
I just weep
<algor>
because it's so stupid
<vil>
yep
<vigs>
oh my glob javascript's this keyword
<vil>
not to mention that all of the available symbols have been overloaded straight to hell already
<vigs>
If you don't add `this.`, then your variable defaults to a goddamn global variable.
<vil>
I think it depends on the scope
<vigs>
No, that's what it does.
<vigs>
Also, this is my JS prof's comment on it: "This is breathtakingly bad language design, and is one of the most common sources of bugs in JS."
<vigs>
also emoji in code would be hilariously bad. if(
<vil>
don't even hate
<vigs>
on?
<vil>
emoji in code
<vigs>
I'm not :P
<vil>
it can't be any worse that some people's naming already :D
<vigs>
oh yeah no kidding
<purr>
<elliottcable> I'm a unicorn
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<algor>
hi princess
<princess>
meow
<algor>
I bet "princess" is stallman's alter ego
<princess>
lol
<purr>
lol
<princess>
i don't know who that is, but i can assure you it's not
<algor>
princess: oh you're in for a treat
<algor>
princess: one of elliott's multitude of friends, I'm going to assume?
<princess>
nope
<ithmic>
Who th fuck
<algor>
then... why are you in #elliottcable
ithmic is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE
<princess>
good question
* ELLIOTTCABLE
eyebrow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So, this is weird
<algor>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<algor>
it must be hell being stallman
<algor>
you eat _one_ foot callous and suddenly you're all over the tech news
<algor>
"I could really go for some sake right now" -- how did I know he was going to say that
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<glowcoil>
hi alexgordon hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-find feet
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: <+micahjohnston> rms is a retard who eats his feet and never makes anything
<glowcoil>
loll
<purr>
loll
<glowcoil>
eric s raymond is an actively terrible person though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi glowcoil
<glowcoil>
whereas rms is just ridiculous
<glowcoil>
so yeah
<glowcoil>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE <3
<purr>
<joelteon> but i do look l ike dave grohl
<purr>
<gqbrielle> devyn: yeah well then i got manic and suicidally depressed and now everything sucks.
<purr>
<incomprehensibly> flatworms absorb the knowledge of other flatworms when they eat them
<SwooshyCueb>
FUCK METROCAST
<SwooshyCueb>
AND FUCK BELKIN
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
SwooshyCueb: wat
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<vigs>
scoping in javascript is why I can't sleep at night
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<glowcoil>
vigs: "this" is determined lexically by caller, var decls (but not assignments) are hoisted to top of nearest function(){}, both decl and def of function f(){} is hoisted, no var = global
<glowcoil>
vigs: repeat that to yourself 20 times when you get in bed
<vigs>
glowcoil: I think I might actually do that
<SwooshyCueb>
I'm on GW2 if you wanna join me ELLIOTTCABLE
<vigs>
glowcoil: actually…would you mind taking a look at this? It's a stupid homework assignment, and I hit a wall.
<glowcoil>
vigs: sure
<vigs>
oh, sweet, thanks!
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi SwooshyCueb
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: wow, that's a really, really good summary
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: you can hit me too, if glowcoil didn't help
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ohhmaar: take all challenges directed at you. :P
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Thanks! glowcoil was a massive help :)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
:p
<vigs>
What's up, everyone?
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: whatcha wanted to talk abot
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<devyn>
I suddenly got a whole bunch of what.cd upload and now I'm sitting above 1.0
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<devyn>
o.o
<devyn>
I didn't even do anything
<devyn>
^_^
<glowcoil>
devyn: hell yeah o/ surpassed 1.0 a week or two ago
<glowcoil>
devyn: love that feel
* whitequark
is going to spend all sunday shopping for shit
<whitequark>
arghpsdfhjksdgmxcv
<whitequark>
PCI WiFi, IDE disk drives, used aquarium equipment
<whitequark>
... windshield cleaner pump
<whitequark>
that's actually all for a single purpose
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<glowcoil>
vigs: or i guess out here :p
<glowcoil>
vigs: get that working in time?
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<devyn>
I found a Korean artist I like!
<devyn>
very american haha
<devyn>
Younha
<purr>
<devyn> nerrrrrrrrrrl
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<purr>
<ec> snot nazi.
<glowcoil>
devyn: i found some really cool korean hip hop that was like
<glowcoil>
devyn: old school 90s east coast hip hop shit
<glowcoil>
which is like my favorite music lol
<purr>
lol
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<purr>
<alexgordon> is that when the asians arrive?
<alexgordon>
context please
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: denied.
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
ooh
<alexgordon>
21:37 <vil> micahjohnston: do you have an orientation period?
<alexgordon>
21:37 <alexgordon> is that when the asians arrive?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE ^
<alexgordon>
fuck your rules elliott
<vil>
I read that minus context in my hilight window and assume something involving sexual orientation
<vil>
*assumed
<whitequark>
I see you're using irclog to great success
<purr>
<alexgordon> only elliottcable could unwittingly name something after bloody anuses
<alexgordon>
piles.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
code time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
good morning
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
happy fucking sunday
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<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
malia!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: o7
<malia>
hiya
<malia>
hiya @ alexgordon
<malia>
what is up in your world?
<alexgordon>
malia: I'm downloading a shitload of flags
<malia>
and the flags are for??
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he's a developer. you probably don't want to know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
most of us will happily download huge data-sets, with no intention other than a vague “I'm going to do dirty things to this data.”
<whitequark>
meh
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yep that's me
<alexgordon>
not a day goes past that I don't scrape some random data off wikipedia :P
<whitequark>
oooooh idea
<alexgordon>
malia: I need flags for my website
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: --welcome
<malia>
alexgordon because you never know what you might need, eh? tell me about your website.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
</joke>
<alexgordon>
malia: can't, I've signed an NDA with myself
<alexgordon>
;)
<malia>
heh heh alexgordon does that mean you have no idea what you had for breakfast?
<alexgordon>
<malia>
I love it!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
tea and bikkits.
<malia>
alexgordon: does this mean you don't know where your url is either due to the NDA? :)
<alexgordon>
well the website isn't up yet :P
<alexgordon>
it's still in development
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's some bitcoin shit
<malia>
ah I see alexgordon still an adolescent website ..
<whitequark>
fucking central bank with its fucking advice
<whitequark>
so... bitcoins in RU have very low liquidity right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ick
<whitequark>
I mean, even lower than everywhere else :D
<malia>
whitequark: we
<whitequark>
what
<malia>
we would rather be paid in chickens
<malia>
sorry slip of the return key, have been up for 4 minutes
<whitequark>
malia: have you ever tried to perform an international bank transfer?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
holy crap, ZeroBlock is by Blockchain?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
christ that company is everywhere
<whitequark>
I don't know about your country, but here it requires you to suck the dick of several regulatory organizations and they still can (and likely will) decline to perform it for no real reason
<malia>
whitequark: no, I just trade chickens, thank you , exier exchange rate
<malia>
thus, the chickens
<alexgordon>
what country do malias come from?
<whitequark>
exier?
<malia>
easier---like I said no coffee, no glasses.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
pats malia
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
morning.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
malias come from Hawai’i.
<malia>
this chat opens as soon as my machine does
<whitequark>
malia: I should send you a chicken
<alexgordon>
TOO MANY FLAGS FOR Bouvet_Island
<alexgordon>
shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Bouvet_Island
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-learn Bouvet_Island = TOO MANY FLAGS
<malia>
hiya ELLIOTTCABLE how you be?
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Learned `Bouvet_Island`.
* whitequark
wonders how happy would malia be to discover a rotten chicken corpse in their mailbox
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
malia: code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
i be code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
i be very code
<alexgordon>
-Bouvet_Island
<purr>
alexgordon: TOO MANY FLAGS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gave up on Atom
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
back to vim.
<malia>
whitequark: probably pretty grossed out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil's parser is currently fucking me over ಠ_ಠ
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: right, so
<whitequark>
whatever you wanted to talk about?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: sorry I didn't reply last night, I'd already laid down with a friend
<malia>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the mind pic I have is terrible
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh how words
<whitequark>
you did what?
<whitequark>
and why did you want me, then? ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: I wanted to apologize for being a dick, basically.
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
accepted
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
All I'd *wanted* to convey the other night, was that I'm against making sweeping changes like that without data. /=
<whitequark>
well
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
instead, I came across as close-minded and jerky.
<whitequark>
I deleted the repo on gh, but still have a local copy.
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I lost you as a possible contributor, because of it. |=
<malia>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you did that with me and I never got an apology :( heh heh
<prophile>
the ELLIOTTCABLE as mercurial as always
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so: I'm here, on my knees. What do you need of me, to repair our relationship? >:
<alexgordon>
<+ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: sorry I didn't reply last night, I'd already laid down with a friend
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
prophile: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<alexgordon>
and now he's on his knees
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
malia: I did too! I told you I was sorry the next time you came in here!
<prophile>
mercurial: adj. Subject to sudden or unpredictable changes of mood or mind.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: maybe I'll be back. well... don't be a jerk? or, better:
<malia>
oh gawd wonder if my husband was using the computer, did you get an answer? that's funny
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what the fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
irc cloud shows colors?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but doesn't let me set them? UGH
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: I'm convinced I'm *incapable* of doing or saying anything that isn't at least *vaguely* sexual in nature.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(if not straight-up raunchy.)
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: don't turn language features into targets for zealotry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
prophile: I consider mercuriality to be a positive personality trait.
<whitequark>
because you fucking do it too fucking much
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: don't worry about what you say, it's what's inside that counts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
prophile: People who don't change their mind very often, are too convinced of their own correctness.
<whitequark>
Paws *consists* of zealotry, right now.
<prophile>
I think alexgordon wants to harvest your organs
<whitequark>
prophile: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: What do you mean?
<alexgordon>
TOO MANY FLAGS FOR Taiwan
<alexgordon>
SHIT
<alexgordon>
wait taiwan isn't a country
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I mean, to some extent I already-know-that, and/or agree
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: like the locking system part
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I want to hear your explanation / opinion.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-Bouvet_Island @ alexgordon
<purr>
alexgordon: TOO MANY FLAGS
<prophile>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I would usually mean "mercurial" to mean such sudden changes without any particular cause
<alexgordon>
Heard_Island_and_McDonald_Islands
<alexgordon>
mmm mcdonald islands
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
prophile: in which case, I'm not mercurial. ;)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: that sounds like a job for … JEANNICOLAS!
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I told you it is a locking system not because I wanted to annoy you, but because it is a locking system and nothing else, *and* from that it leads that you can apply all existing analysis which was done for locking systems in industry and academia for about 50 years at this point
<prophile>
more of the "have him shot. No wait, have him promoted" than "that is a very well-reasoned argument, and I concede the point"
<whitequark>
but nooo, "Paws' purpose for this locking system is "ordering"
<alexgordon>
haven't heard from him for ages
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: you either!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we all just assumed he only talked to you >':
<alexgordon>
he talks to sammcd more than me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: no idea who that is
<alexgordon>
sammcd
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: too many other conversations, #Paws.Nucleus
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: hunt him down D:
<alexgordon>
shit no, I'm downloading flags
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wrap him in flags and bring him back
ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #flagbondage
<alexgordon>
flag bondage?
<alexgordon>
I think you've invented a new fetish
<malia>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I never got the apology/ have looked in all my files, pockets, srsly... never saw it ...did I reply?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm sorry I didn't buy your book. I really am.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It was wrong of you to bring that to me in public; it definitely annoyed everyone else in the channel; but if you'd iMessaged me, I'd definitely have looked into it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I hope you know that. /=
<sammcd>
:o
<alexgordon>
dude just apologise and have done with it ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
sammcd: heard from jeanni since your car turned into a fireball?
<sammcd>
ya
<alexgordon>
:(
<alexgordon>
sammcd: btw, fukken flags!
<malia>
I didn't give a shit if you bought it, the fact that I rewrote it and got it out and formatted on Amazon, to me was awesome. and if I wanted you to have a copy I would have sent you the pdf, if you were interested.
<malia>
if anybody here wrote an eBook, I think it wouldn't be private material necessarily. we are usually happy for each other's accomplishments.
<malia>
thanks alexgordon
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: when you wake up, what the *fuck* is your parser doing? I can't figure out how it differentiates “expressions” and “embedded things.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I was using a comparison to `instanceof Expression`, and was running into a bewildering array of bugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
until I realized that **everything** in your parser, including a single node that isn't an Expression, is of type Expression. And now I'm confused.
<alexgordon>
FLAGS
<alexgordon>
210 flags!
<alexgordon>
<3
<alexgordon>
nobody bothered to optimize the flag of ecuador
<alexgordon>
this is the weirdest XML formatting ever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that LEGO minecraft set is unreasonably adorable when constructed
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just want to make beautiful things that make somebody happy when that person sees, or uses, that thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Is it goddamned too much to ask that I meet, or find, *one goddamn person* to talk to, who A) understands what I do, and B) has even *remotely* similar worldview / goals to myself?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Everybody who agrees with me, doesn't understand what I do. “Oh, you write the code? That's cool, I wish I understood that stuff!” <giggle giggle>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Everybody who understands what I do, disagrees with me. “You can't write something beautiful! It has to follow <these> <strict> <rules> or else it's incorrect and thus doesn't matter!”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(worst of all? the former group doesn't even understand that there's *subsets* of people who write code, and I don't even do even remotely what they *think* I do … while the latter group, EACH SUBGROUP HAS A DIFFERENT SET OF THEIR OWN LITTLE PEDANTIC RULES. And they all disagree with each other, and basically *none* of them care about making a good
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
product.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I should just go study to be a manager.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can speak programmey-words at the programmers until they make the *actually good thing* that the designers designed,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I can speak product-making words at the designers to explain what the illiterate programmers are saying about what's impossible.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Probably the only niche for me. |=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fucking depressing.
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<whitequark>
thought I'd say a few words to everyone else here.
<whitequark>
if earlier I was disappointed in Elliott's work, now I'm disappointed in Elliott. instead of even remotely sensible arguments, all I heard from him was a stream of fallacies supporting whatever particular worldview he likes, a strawman of myself (I don't even *like* Haskell), and taking arrogant pride in his ignorance. in all honesty, I can't see a reason to remain interested anymore. it's just pointless now.
<whitequark>
if you still want to talk to me, I'm on Freenode.
<whitequark>
bye o/
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… as if this is news to anyone except him … |=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wish we'd argued in here. I dislike privacy.
<vigs>
whoa, shit went down, apparently .__.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil, alexgordon, devyn: Hey. I know JS ain't exactly everyone's favourite thing ever, but I'm looking forward to JSconf immensely.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If I could talk any of you into coming, it'd be an excellent chance for a meetup. ;)
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: where is it? :o
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Florida, which is icky.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but JS sphere is mostly my in-crowd right now.
<vigs>
Oh. :<
<vigs>
I guess it was too much to hope that it'd be somewhere within driving distance :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
peff
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
where are you?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
HATE IT WHEN I LOSE MY MOUSE-POINTER. UGH.
<vigs>
I go to college in San Luis Obispo; it's on the central coast of California
<vigs>
So like three hours from anything important (SF or LA)
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
o7 glowcoil /=
<glowcoil>
vigs: i'm glad! happy to be of help
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: on the coast? How far form hwy-1?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I love that drive >':
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need to roadtrip to Cali again soon. Ugh. idk.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuck the everywhere.
<glowcoil>
aw man whitequark left :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
♪ Propeller Seeds
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE is listening to “Lifeline (unplugged at 'Propeller seeds' release party) ”, by Imogen Heap
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(What happens in IRC, probably don't stay in IRC, 'cuz NSA?)
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the 1 goes through my city
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: The only place I remember is carmel
<purr>
<whitequark> what the hell exactly
<vigs>
Oh, I've been there for a Mock Trial tournament once in high school. Carmel is up by Monterey, it's about an hour from the bay area.
<vigs>
(I'm from the bay area)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: <3 <3 <3 imogen heap
<glowcoil>
omg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
right
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that song is really great.
<glowcoil>
you've seen the fucking gloves right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
she's creative, and neat, and neat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes I watched the video with chellio last night
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to hack those SO BAD
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brb gloves plus quadcopter
<glowcoil>
omg yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: hey. When I have Paws.js running code properly, can I get you to *write some code in it*?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not JS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cPaws
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ya
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
talking with Peter has me convinced that I'm wacky, and I need others' input on how unusable this is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to start trying to build abstractions as soon as it runs code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
get a good feel for *how painful* cPaws is, and *how quickly* the abstractions become usable
<eligrey>
k
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eligrey: who're you
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: well this is a bit sad to say but quite a few of the things i've argued for but haven't made it in are what peter has been mad about
<eligrey>
oops the k was for a different window
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no, peter's differences weren't about the specific things
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's my personality / philosophy / worldview that bugs him.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the *specific things*, I'm just as open to as I've always been.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
holes are looking very attractive right about now, I'm just not going to say in the middle of an argument “okay we're changing the entire language to do that.”
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'll come back later, after actually *working with* what we have now, after solving other, more pressing, issues, and try it out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's just me. that'll never change about me. /=
<glowcoil>
i just very, very strongly feel that cpaws is not ideas as an IR if we want to have dog-syntax etc. or whatever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
huh?
<glowcoil>
♫ why'd you have to be so cute
<glowcoil>
it's impossible to ignore you
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: like,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
♪ Serpent's Kiss
<glowcoil>
paws programs are basically graphs
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE is listening to “Serpent's Kiss”, by Symphony X
<glowcoil>
and cpaws can express a really small subset of those
<glowcoil>
and then hack it with runtime ghosts
<glowcoil>
for the rest
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brb btw, will read when I'm back
<glowcoil>
whereas we *could* allow expression of arbitrary graphs with no necessary runtime overhead
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rephrase
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cPaws doesn't matter, have said it many times
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or, to re-phrase,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you write a Hands with holes, if I decide not to go with holes, that will make me sad. clearly.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but if you write a Paws with a *real syntax*, and more fully explore the possibilities for graph expression, I *won't* be sad, because any other Paws will still be able to run the code from yours, and distribute with yours.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Basically, anything that can be changed by another implementation, *without preventing that implementation from federating with other Paws implementations*, is not something I let myself worry too much about right now.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's stuff like the *basic execution model* that I'm spending my thought on, ya?
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
more interesting are your thoughts about ordering. *That* shit is important.
<glowcoil>
i feel like what whitequark wanted re mailboxes can be done userspace, and *feels right* in userspace
<joelteon>
I'm back
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I just don't see how we can sanely argue / discuss that, without actually typing out code and running it, y'know
<joelteon>
I was away
<glowcoil>
yeah yeah
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah I think I agree, by the way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dislike the term / concept, hugely, the way it was presented
<glowcoil>
like i'm really really happy with the idea of a graph/holes-only paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but yes if I do holes, and I can put together a nice holey abstraction for anonymous resumption, then that's cool by me.
<glowcoil>
and executions seem like they're trying to express that in a weird coordinate system
<glowcoil>
yknow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: you are now back
<glowcoil>
but yeah i'll whip up a parser for a holes only or whatever
<glowcoil>
or something
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: this is magical.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: no, backwards
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want a working Paws *as it exists now*, so we can talk about exactly how *different* things will be with holes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but anyway I'm nearly done with this Paws.js
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
about to hit the “debugging stage.” Almost all of the code is written.
<glowcoil>
i can do that too
<glowcoil>
happy with either step
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then I'm sure I'll have some huge bugs that prevent it from working,
<glowcoil>
ok did you still need help re parser?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then I can work through those, and we can *start writing paws code*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
paws code we'll nominally throw away, of course.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we *have* to assume we'll throw it away, or it'll be dead-weight encouraging us not to change things. ew.
<glowcoil>
yeah :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but that code will help us brain out the abstractions necessary to work with “lock-based ordering” (ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ),
<glowcoil>
to get better at making music you have to make things you know will suck, but you *also* have to pour your soul into them or you won't improve
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or to do non-hole-y specific-resumption.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: true of everything. hardest truth.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hardest truth.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: in that conversation with peter, how would you name what I was calling “correctness?”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's been bugging me ever since he rage quit;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just, can't, put, a finger on, how I feel.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I HATE. THAT.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hm didn't see the word correctness
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it's Linux vs OS X. Haskell vs Ruby.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: did you mean the thing he values more than you?
<glowcoil>
yeah yeha yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there was an entire argument in there about how I was straw-manning him with ‘correctness.’
<glowcoil>
yeah it's devaluing the human element of things
<glowcoil>
is what i would say
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is correct. he wasn't wrong.
<glowcoil>
i've literally transitioned from one camp to the other
<glowcoil>
several years ago
<glowcoil>
whereas you started out w design or w/e
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if I see anybody mention static analysis, or old programming languages, or Linux or Android or … anything … it really sets me off.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I forget what the actual argument is about. /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: huh?
<glowcoil>
and i think that's definitely at least slightly harmful on your part, since there is a *lot* of value to be gained from knowing about those things
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: as in you found programming from design, human-oriented things
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i moved in the opposite direction
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nids
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and became music.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
micah became music.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in my head, micah anagrams to music.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in the real world, it does not.
<glowcoil>
lul
<glowcoil>
mahic
<glowcoil>
mieuxhc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
my head is clearly better than the real world.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you busy?
<glowcoil>
wellll i have to shower and then in less than 2 hours
<glowcoil>
i'm traxing down to meet my family and get a ride to my grandparents'
<glowcoil>
for a big ol post-lds-general-conference family dinner
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OH GLOWCOIl
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
DID YOU
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
SEE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I GOT AARON DIAZ'S BOOK
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
IT'S HUUUUUUUUUUGEMONGOUS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's like a foot by three feet!
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah saw the picture, jealous! :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
AAAAAAARRRRTTTTTT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
okay I lied, a foot by a foot-and-a-half
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just measured
<glowcoil>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it won't fit on any of my shelves!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I always thought coffee-table books were dumb. Until I got a book that wouldn't fit anywhere except my coffee table.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
now I have a coffee-table book.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ART ART ART ART ART ART ART ART ART ART ART ART
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I wish I could art.
<glowcoil>
yeah definitely
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Maybe I should just pull a _why and start making code *exclusively* to be art.
<glowcoil>
like i've resigned myself to working with artsists, and just coding and making games
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Then nobody can complain at me for it being incorrect :D
<glowcoil>
music*
<glowcoil>
because art is a similarly massive investmenet to music
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Your code is slow!” “TOO BAD IT'S ART”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is it?
<glowcoil>
and i have only so much time in my life and my skills have a looooongngngng way to go musicwise
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, time, yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
was like, it's paint yo
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
couple bucks or sommat
<glowcoil>
:P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
♪ Schadenfreude
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE is listening to “Schadenfreude (Original Mix)”, by The M Machine
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I love blind-typing links. It makes me feel magical, when I'm really not. <,<
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oyster crackers are unreasonably delicious.
<glowcoil>
haha yes
<glowcoil>
*though*
<glowcoil>
i have to hand select it
<glowcoil>
no protocol://
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
worked in irccloud
<glowcoil>
irccloud is better than fucking Terminal.cpp
<glowcoil>
app
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: thinking about iterators
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
why *do* you still use irssi!?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: haha no iea
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: oh yeah irccloud demo ran out
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: what about em?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I've going over them in my mind
<alexgordon>
I want to do this iterators everywhere thing
<alexgordon>
but iterators are _hard_
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, really?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
forgot it was a paid service
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: oh ok cool!
<glowcoil>
yeah
<alexgordon>
to do efficiently anyway
<glowcoil>
yeah
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I mean if map and filter etc all take and return iterators
<alexgordon>
then you want the operations to fuse together
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: i feel like iterators should just be one thing they can take and return, like you want a synchronous list one sometimes probably
<glowcoil>
but yeah fusion
<glowcoil>
is neat
<vigs>
"Iterators"
* vigs
has horror-filled flashbacks
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Expression is literally a linked list
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs you don't even know how to write a code shush shush
* ELLIOTTCABLE
pats vigs on the head and hands him DUPLO
<vigs>
:<
<glowcoil>
:<
<vigs>
DUPLO as in the LEGO stuff for kids?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“We are from the pla-net DUPLO, and we are here to de-stroy you.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: okay. In all seriousness, then, since it's disappointing that you don't know,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Paws can mean two things. A huge spaceship of a project, contrived to Make Programming Better,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, at the moment, the kernel component of that project; a high-level virtual machine that powers programming languages of a certain sort.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, most generally, “Paws is a programming language.”
<vigs>
Ah, I see
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: how was that?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: (There's a running joke that Paws is impossible to explain, so …)
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: "black" has brain massaging textures
<glowcoil>
this is great
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
3.3kb of code. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: innniiiitttttttt!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: I'm an M Machine fanboi
<vigs>
Wait, so /that's/ the hello world?
<vigs>
So many parens, I can't even
<glowcoil>
lol it feels unnecessary long to me
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
but i haven't tried to write a shorter one
* vigs
pets purr
* purr
rrr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hey, glowcoil, watch @jsconf
<glowcoil>
vigs: ok watch this
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: they're retweeting people who want to sell their tickets.
<glowcoil>
print(a_list each)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, if you can find a seller, I'll pick one up for you.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok cool thx <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: think assembler, not coffeescript. ;)
<glowcoil>
won't be able to watch for next several hours tho
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's a virtual-machine intermediate-form, basically.
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ohh, alright
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in the real world, preprocessors, some form of homoiconic syntax-machine, or straight-up alternative parsers/languages, are how you get code *into* that / *into* a Paws machine. Only a psychotic nutjob, or Paws implementer, would write that shit by hand. ;)
<vigs>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but. anyway. to satisfy your original curiosity, Paws is mostly a joke.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's fun to try to get alexgordon to implement it.
<vigs>
hahaha
<vigs>
…flag bondage?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Don't look at me, alexgordon is the freak
<vigs>
Kinky
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
3:55 PM <+glowcoil> btw you can select that text
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
3:55 PM <+glowcoil> and that's the major accomplishment of pqws
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
implement what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: don't read any of the above it's a sekrit
<alexgordon>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nothing nothing *waves hands*
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: :D
<glowcoil>
wellllll i gtg
<glowcoil>
to a family dinner
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: hearts bye
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a max on my feet
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hearts o7
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
life is okay.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: so is it possible to fuse external iterators?
<alexgordon>
better question is, how do you return an iterator
<alexgordon>
surely that requires some sort of coroutines/continuations
<vil>
not sure if it's useful or not but I thought you might find it interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vil: oh god
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like I needed *more* ways to make my code incomprehensibly foreign and strange!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
>:
<vil>
that was my immediate reaction also
<vil>
haha
<vigs>
oh glob
cloudhead has joined #elliottcable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glob?
<vigs>
oh, vil got me saying it, then I watched some episodes of Adventure Time
<vil>
I've been working on entirely replacing "god" with it in my vocabulary
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
having a really depressing conversation with emily
<vil>
just to see if I can
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'bout the whole eich thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vil: … lolololwtf
<purr>
lolololwtf
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
see purr is wtf'ed too
* vil
pats purr
* purr
rrrrrrr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
purr is everyone's favourite bot.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I mean, how can you not love that.
<vil>
yep
<vigs>
I've worked "god" nearly entirely out of my vocabulary too, but now glob is making me use phrases with it in it again
<vigs>
also purr is chill :D
<vil>
remember when we were going to make purr 2?
<vil>
what is spare time
<vigs>
it's the time we spend on IRC when we could be designing RAM in VHDL
<vil>
I'm actually building a processor right now
<vigs>
cool
<vigs>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
MIKA is completely failing to cheer me up right now. |=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vil: wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: double wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thought you two were kids in Uni, studying Java or some shit.
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: wat?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you do work on FPGAs?
<vigs>
Oh
<vil>
I'm CompSci, yes
<vil>
but we have to take one course on architecture
<vigs>
Yeah, I'm studying Computer Engineering, so I get some EE stuff too, and a bunch of digital design
<eligrey>
i have a brain that i will lease for fpga uses at $1000/hr
<vil>
lol
<purr>
lol
<vigs>
In this class, we basically build a computer, then write assembly and have our computer run it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: that's pretty neat.
<eligrey>
you may only interface with it using sound
<vigs>
Yup!
<vigs>
I was originally EE, but then I realized code is cooler, so I switched. Now I'm too far down the rabbit hole to switch to Software Engineering :(
<vigs>
(Not a bad thing, but whatever)
<vil>
what I have learned from this course is that I'm really glad I'm not doing hardware
<purr>
vigs: We're currently voice-chatting, hence may be untalkative in IRC. Join us: mumble://ell.io/ (Download: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ … you may have to self-register in the client, and then re-log, before you can speak.)
<vil>
can't, sorry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lies
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well anyway it's true
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I nearly fell off my chair when he said “I'm the one that sounds exactly like Nicholas Cage.”
<vil>
lolol
<purr>
lolol
<vigs>
I might hop on mumble later; I'm trying to get this thing to work :/
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<purr>
<whitequark> it's a language designed with spherical elliottcables in mind, not anyone with a real job
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