<alexgordon>
2 million naira is almost exactly $10k
<alexgordon>
fancy that
<nuck>
The only exchange rate I can remember is Yen-USD
<nuck>
Because it's basically something like 80JPY = 1USD
<alexgordon>
I am trying to forget the £/$ exchange rate... unsucessfully
<nuck>
Drop a couple zeroes and you know the rough price
<alexgordon>
5 year low, fml
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: lolllllll
<purr>
lolllllll
<nuck>
That's why you don't measure your money in weight, alexgordon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shush purr
<alexgordon>
fuck your stupid currency, america
<alexgordon>
:'(
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nuck: lol'd
<nuck>
Just be glad you're not China
<nuck>
They're so hilariously fucked right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Y
<alexgordon>
nuck: haha you say that but their fuckery is going to fuck us too
<nuck>
Probably true
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
China!
<nuck>
I'm curious what effect it'll have on their role as the world's factory
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ask I inimino
<alexgordon>
nuck: little to none
<nuck>
alexgordon: Probably, but I can always hope for something interesting in economics
<nuck>
It's such a bland topic otherwise
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nuck: wat
<nuck>
The international economic climate has barely changed since I was born
<alexgordon>
wat
<alexgordon>
when were you born, 2008?
<nuck>
Well I mean, it's changed
<nuck>
But in horribly predictable manners
<nuck>
I want to see a bloodbath!
<nuck>
I take a sadistic view of economics
<alexgordon>
indeed
<alexgordon>
hey I'm all for chaos
<alexgordon>
but just not at my expense :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
…
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: …
<nuck>
I mean I guess the euro was kind of funny to see play out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nuck: …
<nuck>
In a bizarre shitstorm kind of way
<alexgordon>
oh the euro was hilarious
<nuck>
I don't know how anyone ever thought a unified currency without unified economic policy was even viable
<nuck>
Did they not look back to late 1800s USA?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If a place, like a person, could be dead, we would be inside a corpse.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what's going on with the euro?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!
<nuck>
^
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… the U.S.
<nuck>
I mean, I see European unification as inevitable in the long term
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm only distantly aware of everybody in Greece dying, or becoming millionaires, or something?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so around 1990-something, some countries of the EU decided it would be a good idea to join all their currencies together
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I know what the euro *is*
<alexgordon>
some countries had crappy currencies, so "how could it be worse"
<alexgordon>
other countries had good countries, so "how could it go wrong"
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<nuck>
I feel like over time, governments are getting bigger and the EU is inevitable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
isn't there precisely one country that won't have anything to do with it? Finland or Sweden or something?
<nuck>
Especially as we expand into a spacefaring society in the next 100 years
<alexgordon>
all went well, until the financial crisis in 2007-2010
<alexgordon>
then the whole thing went kaput
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nuck: 23"@ of *course*
<nuck>
alexgordon: I'd say even then it went relatively fine
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
control centralized itself, a basic rule of any complex system
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sweden, denmark and uk did not join
<nuck>
It wasn't until they realized Greek went bust
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
centralization must be entirely prevented to be avoided
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: it was mainly a vanity project
<alexgordon>
the bigwigs thought it would be "cool" to have one currency
<alexgordon>
slightly more convenient
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: How did it ‘go kaput?’ I've heard literally nothing about this; as far as I know, the euro is still a thing …
<nuck>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Well that and it just makes sense. When you only communicated with nearby villages, it made sense that your village handled most things. But as our visible world has expanded and society grown larger, so have the borders
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: well europe wasn't able to recover from the financial crisis via the usual means
<nuck>
^ they couldn't do pretty much fucking anything
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: they couldn't print money, because they would all have to _agree_ to print money. Some countries currencies were valued too high, some too low
<alexgordon>
because it was all the same fucking one
<alexgordon>
basically, there was an ass load of tension
<alexgordon>
and it killed greece
<nuck>
alexgordon: The unified european market could have solved that, had the governments not gotten so fucking stupid
<nuck>
I'd say politics killed the euro, not economics
<alexgordon>
nuck: well the germans decided to take advantage of it
<alexgordon>
and nobody can go against the germans
<nuck>
Take advantage how?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
still not clear on ‘killed the euro’
<alexgordon>
nuck: undervalued euro benefits german manufacturing
<nuck>
alexgordon: Hah, not that it helped them at all
<nuck>
Fucking VW is *destroyed* right now
<alexgordon>
nuck: had all the countries had different currencies, germany's would have risen in value, whereas say spain & greece's would have fallen
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
are you speaking in some obscure “as an excellent currency” sense? because I am v. sure prices are still listed in euros various places, and I'm v. sure I'd have heard if any important countries had re-issued their old currency …
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the euro is still alive
<nuck>
ELLIOTTCABLE: You might've missed the part where multiple countries held referendums about switching away from the euro back to their old currency
<nuck>
The euro is alive, but who knows how long
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: however it certainly put to rest any future expansion of the euro, and also it showed rather well that the euro was a stupid decision that has wrecked entire countries...
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ahhhhh k
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
‘dying’ at most, not ‘dead’
<nuck>
The euro is a good idea, tbh
<alexgordon>
probably they'll muddle their way through
<nuck>
The US runs fine with a single currency
<nuck>
Despite the fact that different states are very different economically
<alexgordon>
yeah but the US is one country
<alexgordon>
europe is many countries
<nuck>
alexgordon: Not really
<nuck>
I know it seems that way from europe, but we're about as disparate as europe
<alexgordon>
haha yes and americans always say that
<nuck>
The biggest difference is that the federal government has economic controls
<nuck>
And can actually act
<nuck>
implementing QE and adjusting interest rates to deal with inflation
<nuck>
alexgordon: To put things in perspective, a house in California costs $200,000 but a house in Missouri can cost $40,000
<nuck>
You will not find a house for less than $90,000 in California
<nuck>
Wages are similarly different, and the same applies to manufacturing stuff
<alexgordon>
nuck: to put it in perspective, people in spain speak spanish, people in portugal speak portuguese, people in france speak french, people in sweden speak swedish, people in the netherlands speak dutch...
<nuck>
alexgordon: People in texas speak spanish, people in New York speak russian, and people in San Francisco speak Japanese. So what?
<alexgordon>
no, whole countries speak these languages
<nuck>
The big difference is that the Eurozone had zero control over their currency
<alexgordon>
there's like 1000s of years of history of these countries going to war with each other, it's not like the US where the states are basically invented
<nuck>
alexgordon: We had hundreds of years of these states going to war with each other too
<alexgordon>
thousands
<alexgordon>
some us states have straight line borders! :P they are that arbitrary
<nuck>
That's only really from the Louisiana Purchase
<nuck>
And nobody lives in those states
<alexgordon>
well even california has straight line borders, and people live there
<nuck>
I really think you overestimate the infighting in europe
<nuck>
alexgordon: Well that's kind of true
<nuck>
We do have 10% of the population
<alexgordon>
it's not about in fighting, it's about cultural identity
<nuck>
We have completely separate cultures
<nuck>
Probably 6-7 different cultures in the US
<alexgordon>
e.g. the french spilt a lot of blood to get their republic, they aren't going to hand everything over to some european government
<nuck>
There's frequent talk of splitting it up. It won't happen, because we made this whole federal thing work
<nuck>
alexgordon: And do you know how many french people today lived through that?
<alexgordon>
doesn't matter, they feel really strongly about it
<nuck>
War has a way of fading into history
<alexgordon>
europe can never end up with a federal government, it is simply impossible
<nuck>
I'm gonna laugh when you end up being wrong on that
<alexgordon>
laugh away
<nuck>
Most of the South Koreans born after about 1990 don't have any real enmity towards North Korea
<nuck>
So the sentiment has shifted heavily there
<nuck>
There's not as much worry about reunification
<nuck>
Wars fade quickly
<nuck>
I suspect the same will happen in Europe over the next 50 years
<nuck>
Especially as globalization continues. More youth are looking outwards past their own national borders
<nuck>
The cross-pollination of the european economic zone's lack of borders helped too
<nuck>
Nationalism cannot survive in the modern world
<alexgordon>
I'm not sure I agree that that means nationalism _won't_ survive
<nuck>
It will
<alexgordon>
nationalism remains an extraordinarily efffective political technique
<nuck>
But it takes isolationism to perpetuate it
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<nuck>
If you're actually talking to people from around the world, it's hard to actually think you're better than them
<nuck>
Like I used to think that Serbia was a shithole, but now I know a guy from Serbia. Apparently it's not too bad there
<nuck>
Holy shit, business idea!
<nuck>
I wanna sell organic non-gmo sex toys
<nuck>
To annoying yuppies who would actually fall for that
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: would you buy a non-gmo butt plug?
<nuck>
>mention gullible yuppies
<nuck>
>alexgordon asks elliott
<nuck>
... it's fair
<nuck>
Discovery: I haven't ahd anything to eat today besides coffee and ramen
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<eligrey>
suggest a book?
<eligrey>
s/\?//
<eligrey>
any book
<purr>
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: eboyjr: 'it turns out that' clang doesn't support grapefruits
<glowcoil>
(was demonstrating the pronoun correction stuff ;o)
<nuck>
god, glowcoil. Stop misgendering him
<nuck>
It's r00d
<eligrey>
nuck: i dont buy anything non-gmo
<eligrey>
i only buy gmo soylent and inject it into my stomach
<nuck>
eligrey: Me too, but I like to mix in a bit of RoundUp into it first
<eligrey>
i actually eat soylent tho
<eligrey>
pro gmo
<ljharb>
gmo is great
<ljharb>
most of our veggies and plants are gmo. they just used slow, obsolete grafting instead of modern science.
<eligrey>
ljharb: how much soylent do you eat?
<eligrey>
on a scale of hungry to full
<eligrey>
dont use numbers
<ljharb>
oh i don't eat soylent
<ljharb>
unlike its inventor, i don't hate life or food. i love food.
<eligrey>
what
<eligrey>
ljharb: how do you live out of a traveling van full of soylent then?
<ljharb>
cooking food, and choosing what food to eat, is easy and such a tiny part of my day, it's the dumbest thing to optimize while removing all the pleasure gotten from eating
<ljharb>
lol
<purr>
lol
<eligrey>
with verizon unlimited lte and your rig
<ljharb>
i don't know how to answer that
<eligrey>
it doesnt compute thats why
<eligrey>
you need to join the future already
<eligrey>
ljharb: you should try it tho
<ljharb>
lol did you see the hilarious article from the soylent inventor how he claims to not live on the grid, but he still steals his neighbors wifi?
<eligrey>
i didnt hear about the wifi part
<eligrey>
but he probably isnt lying in one sense
<ljharb>
it's not lying
<eligrey>
he is rich so he can afford a ton of solar
<ljharb>
it's just he's not so off the grid as he thinks
<eligrey>
so if he does use electricity its off the grid
<ljharb>
he's one of those "i don't own a tv but i watch shows on netflix" kind of people
<eligrey>
one of those?
<ljharb>
it's not the television "i don't own a tv" is supposed to be condemning, it's "i don't watch tv content" :-p
<ljharb>
if you watch netflix you own a tv, stfu you hipster
<eligrey>
i haven't watched cable tv on a tv for 14 years
<ljharb>
if you've watched tv shows then you watch tv, end of story
<ljharb>
doesn't matter much which provider you use
<whitequark>
> cooking food, and choosing what food to eat, is easy and such a tiny part of my day, it's the dumbest thing to optimize while removing all the pleasure gotten from eating
<whitequark>
unless you live on snacks or eat once per day, it takes three or four hours daily to buy, prepare, eat, and clean up after making food
<jane>
also the wifi part was probably the least infuriating bit from those series of posts
<whitequark>
and i dunno, maybe you get pleasure from eating, i don't. it's just an annoying distraction
<whitequark>
i would literally consider an IV line with glucose an improvement over having to put things into my mouth
<pikajude>
don't go russian to conclusions
<pikajude>
i love coffee and coffee drinks. food is alright
<pikajude>
i'd like it as a convenience
<whitequark>
coffee makes my heart go "fuck you"
<whitequark>
and, well, doesn't have any desirable psychological effects either as far as i've noticed
<pikajude>
i like the taste of it
<whitequark>
and tastes gross
<pikajude>
oh whitequark
<whitequark>
i've tried like two dozen different kinds of coffee. some of them are drinkable, none of them are something that i would consider desirable *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
why even bother
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<ljharb>
whitequark: 3-4 hours daily? jesus
<ljharb>
sounds like you aren't cooking very efficiently.
<ljharb>
(i find coffee disgusting fwiw)
<whitequark>
eligrey: i like the idea of soylent but the people who make the product are incapable of safely producing food
<whitequark>
and need FDA on their tail
<Rurik>
anyone good with elementary physics here?
<ljharb>
Rurik: what's the question
<ljharb>
i might have the … solution
<Rurik>
should I take to solve this question?
<Rurik>
[12:52:29] <Rurik> I did sqrt( (4-F)^2 + 8^2) = 4*5 but that gives the wrong answer
<whitequark>
ljharb: well maybe 2-3 is more like it
<ljharb>
whitequark: per day tho??
<eligrey>
i dont mean for 100% of your food
<whitequark>
assuming cooking does not consist of taking flash frozen garbage and heating it
<eligrey>
but 50% its tasty and healthy
<Rurik>
should I have done 4+F instead of 4-F
<eligrey>
and doesnt even require refridgeration
<eligrey>
for 1 whole year
<eligrey>
whitequark:
<ljharb>
whitequark: yeah it takes like an hour to make a few meals' worth of healthy food, and an hour to shop for a week's worth of meals
<ljharb>
so it's not nothing but it's not 2-3 hours a day
<ljharb>
Rurik: F = ma
<eligrey>
its super conveniant for lunch
<Rurik>
That's what did
<ljharb>
Rurik: so if the block has a = 5 and m=4
<whitequark>
eligrey: no i mean
<ljharb>
Rurik: then what F is acting on it
<whitequark>
eligrey: there was that soylent recall when it had mold in it
<whitequark>
and then toxic levels of lead
<ljharb>
Rurik: (also note, acceleration is a vector, and they're not telling you a direction)
<whitequark>
and probably something else but I stopped caring
<eligrey>
that's the powder
<Rurik>
yes
<eligrey>
with rice protein
<Rurik>
That is why I did sqrt( (4-F)^2 + 8^2)
<whitequark>
eligrey: ok and?
<eligrey>
the drink is isolated soy proteins
<ljharb>
Rurik: but given that it's multiple choice, it'll be N or -N, and they're all positive, so the direction doesn't matter
<Rurik>
That's the net force
<whitequark>
eligrey: it's about complete lack of QA
<ljharb>
Rurik: the net force on the block is 20N
<eligrey>
i don't eat the powder and a new 1.6 soy powder is coming out
<ljharb>
Rurik: because m * a = 4 * 5 = 20
<eligrey>
anyone who eats lots of rice gets lots of lead
<eligrey>
thats life
<ljharb>
Rurik: but the question isn't asking for 20, it's asking for the third force.
<eligrey>
thats why i don't eat rice that often
<Rurik>
ljharb, so how do I find F
<Rurik>
I did their vector sum taking right side as the positive one
<eligrey>
whitequark: never had any mold ever
<eligrey>
maybe some salt though coming from you
<ljharb>
Rurik: this is where "physics was 17 years ago" makes me unable to help
<eligrey>
so much salt
<eligrey>
yness
<ljharb>
Rurik: but clearly there's some equation that you can plug 4, 8, and 20 into to get 22.3 :-p
<ljharb>
Rurik: oh wait
<Rurik>
that equation is F_net = ma
<ljharb>
Rurik: `20 = √((4 -F)^2 + 8^2)` ?
<whitequark>
eligrey: hm, now that I reread about that lead/cadmium issue, it's more about insane prop65 levels
<Rurik>
which is what I did
<whitequark>
you are right
<ljharb>
Rurik: so `400 = (4 - F)^2 + 64` which means `336 = (4 - F)^2`
<eligrey>
yeah i'm telling you
<eligrey>
rice isnt horrible but its slightly increased so prop65 hates it
<eligrey>
like it hates the state of ca
<whitequark>
yeah it's 1/50th of FDA limit
<whitequark>
fine by me
<eligrey>
do the drink though
<eligrey>
even less
<eligrey>
like 1/500
<ljharb>
Rurik: which means `√336 = |4 - F|` which means `F = √336 + 4`, or 22.3
<ljharb>
Rurik: i'm fudging a bit on the absolute values but i think that's it
<whitequark>
dunno international shipping is probably a pain on the drink
<whitequark>
due to weight
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<eligrey>
ive tried both and the drink tastes great but i wouldnt replace traditional food with the powder
<eligrey>
since its taste is alright
<eligrey>
but idk not amazing/good as the drink
<Hrorek>
ljharb, shouldn't the modulus give 2 answers
<Hrorek>
Or I am missing on some basic mathematics here
<ljharb>
Hrorek: modulus?
<eligrey>
lower glycemic index of 49
<ljharb>
Hrorek: yes, the sqrt should give two answers
<whitequark>
hm, the mold issue was also caught by the vendor itself
<Hrorek>
absolute value function
<whitequark>
i need to read less FUD i guess
<ljharb>
Hrorek: but since the problem is multiple choice, and none of them is negative, you can discard the negative answer
<whitequark>
so far it doesn't really seem any worse than anything in the food industry...
<Hrorek>
yeah but that's kinda cheating
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<ljharb>
Hrorek: how?
<ljharb>
that's how multiple choice questions work
<ljharb>
you can certainly figure out the two answers
<ljharb>
but clearly only one of them is right
<ljharb>
and it's impossible to pick one without 1 more piece of information: either the direction (which they don't give you), or something else that excludes one of the answers (multiple choice)
<Hrorek>
ah, I see
<ljharb>
it's school, so you can't ignore test-taking tricks
<Hrorek>
I'm in college lol
<purr>
lol
<Hrorek>
Had this stuff in school 3 years ago
<Hrorek>
but had a shitty teacher so never understood anything
<ljharb>
the teacher matters a lot
<nuck>
I love cooking but it might be worth it to replace a meal with soylent and put all my effort into one dish I truly love
<nuck>
I hate to admit it but eligrey might be right
<ljharb>
nuck: whoa now, don't be too hasty
<nuck>
I mean, it depends how nasty the texture is
<nuck>
I'm more of a textural eater than anything
<nuck>
But I optimize my cooking anyways. Eyeballing a breakfast sandwich machine to make quick protein-rich breakfasts
<nuck>
Also how can anyone reach 3-4 hours a day cooking
<ljharb>
dunno, it takes about 10 minutes to cook a bomb ass egg/avocado/tomato sandwich, that's one meal
<nuck>
I can barely manage 2
<ljharb>
cleanup === "throw shit in the dishwasher"
<nuck>
And that's if I'm putting in serious effort
<nuck>
^
<nuck>
For breakfast I scramble eggs or make myself an omelette
<nuck>
That's usually 30 minutes
<ljharb>
spend 10 minutes total setting up a slow cooker, and that's like 5-6 meals that can stretch over a week
<nuck>
Since I have to chop stuff
<ljharb>
buy pre-chopped kale, spend 5 minutes per meal sauteeing it with 2-minute chopped nuts, there's another meal
<ljharb>
this stuff's pretty trivial.
<nuck>
Yeah, I optimized my omelettes similarly
<nuck>
I pre-cut and freeze ingredients for omelettes
<nuck>
Sautee it to warm it back up
<nuck>
Not quite as delicious but it gets the job done
<nuck>
For a while I was doing 10 minutes for breakfast
<ljharb>
you don't even have to freeez it
<ljharb>
*freeze
<ljharb>
chop it up, ziploc it, you're good for a week
<ljharb>
(in the fridge)
<nuck>
Well, I kind of do
<nuck>
onions get nasty after a few days when diced
<ljharb>
yeah that's true
<ljharb>
that's where a ninja or vitamix comes in
<nuck>
green peppers get nasty after 4-5
<ljharb>
like, 40 seconds from chop to diced :-p
<nuck>
Freezing it does the job well enough
<ljharb>
sure
<nuck>
My lunch is usually at a taco truck or sandwich shop, so zero minutes
<ljharb>
we make pesto and put it in ice cube trays too
<ljharb>
theres lots of tricks
<nuck>
I've heard that one before
<nuck>
My dinner is usually one of these frozen meals we prepare at a local business
<nuck>
"dream dinners"
<nuck>
They're like 20-30 minutes of work
<nuck>
So I'm looking at usually 30 minutes of meal prep a day
<ljharb>
that sounds about right
<nuck>
I can't imagine how you could reach 4 hours
<ljharb>
for how many people, just you?
<nuck>
household of 3
<ljharb>
nice
<ljharb>
the more people, the easier
<nuck>
I mean, maybe if you include the time to go get groceries
<nuck>
But then you can just order them delivered if you're in a city
<nuck>
Instead of buying soylent
<ljharb>
yup
<nuck>
I wouldn't mind replacing breakfast with soylent or something, seems reasonable to ditch a meal and focus all my efforts on one glorious one
<ljharb>
but also, 1 hour a week should cover groceries. 2 including any reasonable travel time
<nuck>
Yeah
<nuck>
We generally spend two but we hit up so many stores
<nuck>
Usually Costco, Save Mart, and WinCo
<ljharb>
ah
<ljharb>
consolidating stores helps
<nuck>
And some of you probably only recognized one of those
<ljharb>
costco i have, the other two, no clue
<nuck>
Not a californian I take it?
<ljharb>
norcal 4 lyfe
<nuck>
Save Mart is one of the biggest grocery chains in northern california, and WinCo is a major bargain grocer in the states of Washington, Idaho, Nevada, California, and Ohio
<nuck>
(which is where W.I.N.C.O. came from :D)
<ljharb>
save mart i may have heard of (or maybe that's from evil dead) but winco, never even seen one
<nuck>
I mean, the big two in norcal are Raley's/BelAir and Save Mart/Lucky
<ljharb>
ah, lucky we have
<ljharb>
raley's is closer to tahoe tho
<nuck>
Save Mart owns Lucky
<ljharb>
there's no raleys on the peninsula
<ljharb>
ah k
<ljharb>
we have safeway here, mostly
<nuck>
I think they run it as a branded region
<ljharb>
yeah
<ljharb>
safeway is randall's in texas, and von's in socal
<ljharb>
for example
<nuck>
Raley's doesn't go into the bay area, they run it as Bel Air on the peninsula
<ljharb>
hm, i've never seen bel air
<nuck>
Er
<nuck>
Wait no
<nuck>
Nob Hill
<nuck>
Different rich community sorry
<ljharb>
aha, yes we have nob hill foods
<nuck>
Yeah that's Raley's
<ljharb>
ah k
<ljharb>
there you go
<nuck>
We have a lot of Save Marts here in town because well
<nuck>
Their corporate HQ is here
<ljharb>
walgreens and eventually cvs kind of pushed lucky out tho
<ljharb>
where's "in town"
<nuck>
Modesto
<nuck>
I'm sorry
<nuck>
I just apologize by default for my city
<ljharb>
lulz
<ljharb>
actually all of my mom's family is from there
<nuck>
Our motto is "at least we're not fresno"
<ljharb>
true story
<nuck>
hah really
<ljharb>
yeah, my grandma's mom used to own some store like right in the middle of town in the 30s or something
<nuck>
I'm hoping to be the first and last generation of my family here
<ljharb>
all the old people probably remember it (i can't recall the name)
<nuck>
ljharb: bizarre. It wouldn't be Kress would it?
<ljharb>
no
<ljharb>
my grandma met my grandpa there at a USO dance :-p
<nuck>
Cause a coworking space was about to buy an old Kress five & dime
<ljharb>
nah this was like a family grocery store
<nuck>
1912 art deco building
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<nuck>
Gorgeous
<nuck>
heh, we have a lot of those
<nuck>
ljharb: My grandpa was too busy fighting nazis to meet at a USO dance :D
<nuck>
Fuck yeah dutch resistance!
<ljharb>
the other half of my family was fleeing them
<ljharb>
not from holland, from france
<nuck>
le nazis
<nuck>
huhuhu
<ljharb>
some were in the resistance, some were surrender monkeys, and some had to run
<nuck>
I just love the story taht my grandpa fought nazis on a bike
<nuck>
Not even a motorbike, a fucking *bike*
<ljharb>
yeah that's pretty good
<purr>
<alexgordon> I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION FOR YOU
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<purr>
<elliottcable> I feel like Nuck and devyn just both turned into purrs, and some meta-devyn is controlling them via ^O^O.
<whitequark>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
1:10 AM <pikajude> don't go russian to conclusions
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like I very vaguely care about the above topics, and I keep trying to read it all, but I keep getting bored and closing irccloud
<whitequark>
lol wtf some famous verified dude followed me out of blue
<purr>
lol
<meowrobot>
that happens a weird amount to me
<meowrobot>
usually it's someone trying to fish for followers
<inimino>
nuck: the structural problems of the Chinese economy are a topic of much speculation, but there's a lot of uninformed doomsaying going around.
<inimino>
nuck: probably things will continue to muddle along much as they have been, there's not actually much chance of any impending catastrophe
<inimino>
much to the chagrin of those in the US who have made careers out of predicting that China will collapse, because their worldview makes this inevitable
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<alexgordon>
> <+whitequark>and i dunno, maybe you get pleasure from eating, i don't. it's just an annoying distraction
<alexgordon>
robot confirmed
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<nuck>
inimino: Their market has had one hell of a contraction recently hasn't it?
<nuck>
Triggering market shutdowns and ruining confidence
<inimino>
nuck: the grandmas gambling on the Shanghai stock market have about as much bearing on the Chinese economy as the ones in Macau
<inimino>
if the entire Chinese stock market ceased to exist overnight, it would be just a blip
<nuck>
Well that's definitely true, but it does make China look unstable to overseas investors which is probably not good
<inimino>
sure, lots of things are probably not good
<nuck>
I doubt it'll have any long-lasting effects besides a bunch of circlejerking idiots losing money
<inimino>
probably it will reduce some local and foreign confidence in the Chinese stock market
<inimino>
that can only be a good thing
<nuck>
China is lucky that their stock market isn't entangled with everything else in the economy
<nuck>
We're not so lucky in the US
<inimino>
if it was, they'd probably run it differently
<inimino>
if the NYSE did that, the US would be ...
<alexgordon>
inimino!
<alexgordon>
this place is alive again
<alexgordon>
even inimino is back
<inimino>
hey alexgordon
<inimino>
I'm only back because I'm awake at 2 AM :P
<alexgordon>
where do you live?
<alexgordon>
UTC+8 ?
<alexgordon>
must be china
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<purr>
<ELLIOTTCABLE> now telling any person who insults me to engage in civil engineering
<pikajude>
i'm building GHC 8.0.1-rc1 today
<pikajude>
alexgordon, this is the one that has duplicate record fields
<pikajude>
which, let's face it, aren't really the same thing as struct members
<alexgordon>
pikajude: yes too little too late
<pikajude>
i mean, if you've written a language that relies on names being unique, adding an edge case where names don't have to be unique can't be that easy
<pikajude>
although it *still* doesn't have magic typeclasses
<pikajude>
which i'm really sad about
<alexgordon>
haskell is a project to make formalisations of features that already worked perfectly well, replacing them with broken versions
<pikajude>
lol
<purr>
lol
<pikajude>
for some definitions of perfectly well
<alexgordon>
struct Foo { int x; int y; }; struct Bar { double x; double z; }
<alexgordon>
THAT SHOULD NOT CAUSE PROBLEMS
<pikajude>
well, now it doesn't
<pikajude>
voila
<pikajude>
26 years later
<alexgordon>
yeah but like I said, now they have to do modules
<pikajude>
modules for the different names?
<alexgordon>
no
<alexgordon>
just modules in general
<pikajude>
ocaml style modules?
<alexgordon>
I want two modules in the same file
<pikajude>
why
<alexgordon>
don't care, just two modules in the same file
<pikajude>
what good is that
<alexgordon>
because every other language has that grrrrr
<pikajude>
huh. ok
<alexgordon>
why should the language dictate what can and cannot be a separate file
<pikajude>
or how to format your code
<alexgordon>
I don't mind that
<alexgordon>
the significant whitespace in haskell is establishing a convention, which is good
<alexgordon>
BUT when and where to split a file is a human decision
<pikajude>
see i want to debate these PL design things with you alexgordon but they always come down to personal preference
<pikajude>
which is a disappointing end
<alexgordon>
and by forcing you to create files when you should've have to, haskell is crapifying my code
<alexgordon>
*shouldn't have to
<pikajude>
write better code
<alexgordon>
?
<pikajude>
idk, i got nothing
<alexgordon>
before now the solution to having structs with the same name was to create a file for every single struct...
<alexgordon>
that is DUMB
<alexgordon>
*same field name
<pikajude>
in what situation is putting two modules in the same file really important
<alexgordon>
I just said
<pikajude>
you said it's crapifying your code
<pikajude>
what do you mean
<alexgordon>
yeah but making me split files in unnatural places
<alexgordon>
or by having too many files
<pikajude>
ok
<pikajude>
well
<pikajude>
there you go then
<alexgordon>
pikajude: files tend to have a good natural length, maybe 200-1000 lines. you don't want hundreds of 20 line files because then you're continually switching between files
<alexgordon>
and you don't want one 10000k line file, because you're scrolling all the time
<pikajude>
your files normally consist of 10-50 modules in the same file?
<pikajude>
what kind of program?
<alexgordon>
??
<pikajude>
you said hundreds of 20 line files, so i'm assuming one module is 20 lines
<pikajude>
that would put 10 modules in a 200 line file or 50 in a 1000 line file
<alexgordon>
if a file is getting too long, I split it, if a file is too short I combine it
<pikajude>
oh, ok
<alexgordon>
I guess my issue is this: files are something for humans to organise how they work, not for computers
<alexgordon>
computers can have the whole thing in one big file, they don't care
<alexgordon>
so if a language forces you to create loads of tiny files, it's a shite language :P
<pikajude>
i'd say one module per file encourages separation of concerns
<pikajude>
and not to be a reactionary solipsist, but in all the code i've read in the many languages i'm familiar with, i've never seen more than, say, 3 modules in a file
<alexgordon>
in any OTHER language, maybe
<alexgordon>
but in haskell you are forced to create modules for every struct
<pikajude>
well, that's demonstrably false
<alexgordon>
course you are because of namespacing
<pikajude>
even before duplicate record fields, people just prefix the field names with the model name
<alexgordon>
what's the fucking point of that
<pikajude>
still a hack, but certainly better than one module per struct
<alexgordon>
now you're back to C
<alexgordon>
that's what we did in the dark ages, before namespaces, classes, modules etc were invented
<pikajude>
it's certainly better than this apparently pervasive practice of defining every single model in a different file
<alexgordon>
modules exist to solve that problem, that is why they are there
<alexgordon>
you place related stuff in one module
<pikajude>
i've never once seen that in any haskell code in practice
<alexgordon>
one module!
<alexgordon>
pikajude: yeah because haskell is a shitty language...
<pikajude>
wait, is defining models in different files an objective to work toward?
<alexgordon>
good languages don't require you to mangle names
<alexgordon>
that is non-negotiable IMO
<pikajude>
good languages such as PHP and Javascript i assume
<alexgordon>
anything modern
<alexgordon>
look, the problem is that haskell -- for legitimate type system reasons -- cannot support overloaded functions without a typeclass
<alexgordon>
which is fine, I accept that
<alexgordon>
BUT it must introduce a flexible module system to make up for it
<alexgordon>
otherwise C style name mangling
<pikajude>
how does the module system help?
<pikajude>
i thought defining models in different modules was an antipattern
<alexgordon>
because then you can put the functions related to A in a module for A, and the functions related to B in a module for B
<pikajude>
and what about that is impossible now?
<alexgordon>
say you have a data type Point, and a datatype Rect, you want them to be in the same file because there's only a few functions for each. So you make a Point module and a Rect module, then implement your functions...
<alexgordon>
in haskell all you have a typeclasses, but that doesn't work if you have two functiosn with the _same_ name but _different_ behaviour
<alexgordon>
*are
<pikajude>
sure you can
<alexgordon>
when I define a "method" on X I shouldn't have to think about if Y also has a method of that name that does something completely different
<pikajude>
oh, you mean like "area"
<pikajude>
if you had a Circle and a Rect
<pikajude>
or something like that
<alexgordon>
well sort of, but you could use a typeclass for that
<pikajude>
you can still use a type class and an indexed type family to implement different behavior
<pikajude>
instantiate the type family for each instance of the class
<pikajude>
you could write foo where foo :: Int -> String and foo :: String -> Int
<pikajude>
using type families
<alexgordon>
pikajude: ok say you had a function setSelected()
<alexgordon>
that sets which object is selected in a TableView, and also which text is selected in a TextView
<alexgordon>
it's got the same _name_, but the functionality is not related
<pikajude>
can you give me an example usage
<pikajude>
trying to figure out the positioning of arguments
<alexgordon>
ok so like: setSelected 4 table -- select row 5
<pikajude>
oh ok
<pikajude>
so, presumably you'll be writing two different function bodies
<pikajude>
right
<alexgordon>
and e.g. setSelected (3, 20) ForwardAffinity textview
<alexgordon>
yes two completely different functions that just happen to have the same name
<pikajude>
i see
<pikajude>
makes sense
<pikajude>
yeah, normally in the haskell code i've seen, when you write two functions that do completely different things, you just give them different names that reflect what they do
<pikajude>
one general setSelected method smells to me of duck-typed languages that try to infer behavior at runtime based on the structure of the arguments the function receives
<alexgordon>
which is fine for a toy, but for serious projects with 10,000+ lines and multiple people?
<alexgordon>
pikajude: well haskell does "duck typing" very well with typeclasses
<pikajude>
in a 10,000+ line project, i'd prefer to make it more clear, rather than less clear, when i've written two functions that do different things
<pikajude>
not really duck typing because it tosses out the whole notion of runtime failures due to bad types
<alexgordon>
but what I am talking about is namespacing
<alexgordon>
see in OO languages, methods are namespaced to the class
<pikajude>
yeah
<alexgordon>
that is probably the most important benefit that OO brought
<pikajude>
and in non-OO languages, names have to be unique because they're not given free namespacing by benefit of being in a class
<alexgordon>
because now you can have _way_ more functions in your project, without resorting to name mangling
<pikajude>
like clisp
<alexgordon>
yeah, but explicit namespaces also solve that problem
<pikajude>
right
<alexgordon>
anyway, that is enough ranting
<pikajude>
but prefixing a struct member name with a namespace name is, in practice, the same thing as prefixing it with the model name
<alexgordon>
my other problem with haskell is inflexible argument passing
<alexgordon>
pikajude: sure but I pay compilers to do that shit for me :P
<pikajude>
you just don't get the un-namespaced accessor without pattern matching
<pikajude>
what is inflexible argument passing
<alexgordon>
like... in haskell you can pass arguments by currying, or by tuples, or by data types
<alexgordon>
but if it were me, what I want are "mixed tuples"
<pikajude>
what's that
<alexgordon>
like in python you can do: foo(x, y, name="barry")
<alexgordon>
so you have x, y which are positional, and name: "barry" is named
<pikajude>
oh yeah. swift has that too
<alexgordon>
but you can imagine all the arguments to foo as being one "mixed" tuple
<pikajude>
i see what you mean
<pikajude>
that would be neat
<alexgordon>
actually operations on tuples in general would be nice
<alexgordon>
tuple concatenation...
<pikajude>
so HLists then
<alexgordon>
yeah but less shit :P
<alexgordon>
see for me these code organisational things are just as important as what the langauge can do
<alexgordon>
because if the code is nicely laid out, then I can understand it better
<pikajude>
fair point
<pikajude>
if a language enforces strict code organization rules and they're not compatible with how you read code
<pikajude>
that's a death sentence
<alexgordon>
yeah and this is why I have been loving js recently
<alexgordon>
even though the langauge is absolutely shit
<alexgordon>
you can organise code any way you want
<alexgordon>
:P
<pikajude>
you'd love paws
<pikajude>
it has no syntax rules
<alexgordon>
if only I could understand it :D
<pikajude>
if only anyone could understand it
<pikajude>
i still maintain that a language that cannot be parsed is probably not viable
<alexgordon>
can't paws be parsed? thought it just didn't have a syntax
<pikajude>
if there's no syntax, what does the parser do?
<pikajude>
is it just the identity function?
<alexgordon>
-shrug
<purr>
alexgordon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<whitequark>
pikajude: well, you can't parse perl
<whitequark>
and yet people use it
<pikajude>
ambiguous syntax and no syntax are totally different
<whitequark>
I don't think so, you can't write any tooling in either case
<whitequark>
why you can't write any tooling is besides the point
<pikajude>
easy
<pikajude>
with ambiguous syntax, just pick the first parse
<pikajude>
with no syntax, there's no parse to pick
<whitequark>
what??
<whitequark>
what the fuck do you mean by "pick the first parse"?!
<pikajude>
if the syntax is ambiguous the parser can generate multiple ASTs based on the same input
<pikajude>
and different interpretations of the ambiguous sites
<pikajude>
so just pick the first one
<whitequark>
'just pick'?
<whitequark>
yeah, screw semantics, just interpret random garbage
<whitequark>
how about 'just pipe /dev/urandom to the terminal'? it has the exact same value.
<pikajude>
it's already random garbage if it's ambiguous syntax
<whitequark>
actually, no, it has *more* value. it does not appear correct.
<pikajude>
this is a stupid argument
<pikajude>
i have to go, brb
<whitequark>
perl is not, well, ambiguous. you have to execute it in order to parse
<whitequark>
which is still stupid, just a different kind of stupdi
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<alexgordon>
yo peeps
<purr>
<prophile> I like my languages like I like my women: reducable to 3SAT