<thealphanerd>
hey can I bounce something off the channel?
<thealphanerd>
Let's say "hypothetically" I have a friend
<thealphanerd>
a hypothetical friend
<thealphanerd>
who is invited to speak at an event
<thealphanerd>
and the first speaker announcement is all white dudes
<thealphanerd>
hypothetical friend has not confirmed
<thealphanerd>
this hypothetical friend has reached out to the organizers about the lack of diversity, to which they have received a fairly positive response
<thealphanerd>
There are female speakers waiting to confirm, but less than 10% of the applicants were female
<thealphanerd>
(Still no discussion of POC or people with disabilities or other under represented groups... but the intention is there)
<thealphanerd>
If said hypothetical friend has now been given the go ahead to introduce the organizers to more diverse speakers... how does that friend talk to underrepresented people about the opportunity with it sounding like "Hey we want you there as a token minority"
<thealphanerd>
:(
<jfhbrook>
beyond couching it as, hey you should talk at this thing they're looking for people and you're TOTALLY good enough you should do it
<jfhbrook>
no real advice
<jfhbrook>
I suspect they'll realize the conference is trying to increase diversity but if you focus on the content they'll be okay with it? maybe?
<jfhbrook>
I say this as someone who is a cishet white male so
<thealphanerd>
yeah
<thealphanerd>
it is a tough one
* alexgordon
says nothing
<thealphanerd>
I'm starting by reaching out to people I know, that I have booked to speak before
<thealphanerd>
that way they know my asking is because I think they rock
<thealphanerd>
not because of the bits in their pants or the color of their bits in their pants
<thealphanerd>
but that network is only so large
<alexgordon>
thealphanerd: I promised myself I wouldn't get into any more arguments like this, but IMO the entire idea seems odious
<purr>
<gqbrielle> sephr
<alexgordon>
whether or not you _tell_ them that you're inviting them because of their skin color/gender/whatever factor, the fact is that you are
<thealphanerd>
alexgordon I agree
<ljharb>
i think that's ok.
<alexgordon>
lol we have reached horseshoe
<purr>
lols
<thealphanerd>
LOL
<thealphanerd>
argument avoided
<ljharb>
"you are a qualified speaker and we have too many white dudes. can you come help show the audience that white dudes aren't the only experts on this topic?"
<ljharb>
that's how i'd present it ^
<thealphanerd>
ljharb Ithink you just nailed my thought process
<ljharb>
that's the reason. it's not "token" it's "stop showing a super white and male distorted viewpoint to everyone else"
<ljharb>
and it's totally fair if the individual doesn't *want* to do that
<ljharb>
because it takes a lot of energy and effort to educate people that "lots of white dudes" is a bad default
<ljharb>
but hopefully that would at least present them the opportunity in an honest and not condescending way
<jfhbrook>
there are a lot of dumb talks by white startupbros
<jfhbrook>
they're giving shitty talks because they look like zuck
<thealphanerd>
I think the reality is to be honest about it
<thealphanerd>
Yes... this is shitty. It is better than the alternative which is the status quo
<ljharb>
right
<thealphanerd>
I think it is also important that the organizers are not going to carte blanche accept talks
<thealphanerd>
just consider them
<thealphanerd>
"please ask them to email us because we closed the call for proposals already and we might do an exception if the content is exceptional"
<jfhbrook>
that seems mildly annoying
<jfhbrook>
like, that's somewhere between saying "we don't care about diversity but somebody that does said they could find us better speakers so whatever" and "we are looking for token minorities"
<jfhbrook>
I guess the former is preferable?
<jfhbrook>
and the latter is a weird "ends justify the means" kinda thing?
<jfhbrook>
I mean I guess we've decided as a society that affirmative action is a good idea
<thealphanerd>
everyone says call out the conf
<thealphanerd>
no one says how to fix it :P
<jfhbrook>
I mean
<jfhbrook>
I dunno
<jfhbrook>
there are definitely confs that give zero fucks
<jfhbrook>
anything with an enterprise flavor gives zero fucks from what I've seen
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<thealphanerd>
I think the conf gives a fuck
<thealphanerd>
I just don't think they know exactly how
<ljharb>
thealphanerd: tell them they need to stop accepting proposals from white dudes until they've got enough viewpoints that aren't that
<thealphanerd>
they do a blind rating system for talks
<ljharb>
ok
<jfhbrook>
right, what they *should* have done was come up with a process that was generally fair but still likely to generate a diverse lineup
<ljharb>
there needs to be a "not blind" process after that.
<thealphanerd>
indede
<ljharb>
white dudes with opinions are plentiful (hi!) and there's not going to be any shortage of them wanting to talk.
<jfhbrook>
right, like I would expect a blind rating system to yield a representative sample, not a diverse one
<thealphanerd>
yup... I'm pretty sure it is all loud white guys having this discussion here
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<thealphanerd>
jfhbrook exactly what it did
<jfhbrook>
a sample of people where they all thought they were hot shit
<alexgordon>
lol you guys are so racist it's unbelievable!
<jfhbrook>
it's not really racism or sexism to point out that there are systems in place in society that favor and privilege white men, and that people surrounded by favor and privilege tend to tell themselves that they deserve their good fortune
<jfhbrook>
that's human nature
<jfhbrook>
it just so happens that "loud white guys" are the favored group
<alexgordon>
by applying labels to people on racial lines it perpetuates the idea that people's behaviour fits along racial lines...
<ljharb>
it often does. but not because of genetics, because of social attitudes about race.
<alexgordon>
if you say white guys are X, then it implies that black guys are Y, ... that is the whole idea of race
<ljharb>
why does it imply that
<ljharb>
"X are Y" makes no statement about "everything that's not X", implied or otherwise.
<alexgordon>
it's not right to say people behave a certain way because of their skin colour
<ljharb>
but they do.
<alexgordon>
no... they don't
<ljharb>
their skin color impacts how they're treated their whole life by others. *that* absolutely affects how they behave.
<alexgordon>
yeah it impacts it because everybody else believes in races
<jfhbrook>
I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that there are systems in place in society that disfavor black people, and that people surrounded by disfavor and discrimination tend to be irritated and/or down about it
<ljharb>
if your skin color flipped right now to something else, your behavior wouldn't change. but if you'd grown up with a different skin color, it absolutely would be different.
<alexgordon>
don't you see it? by accepting the theory of races you are helping keep it alive in america
<ljharb>
simply because others would have likely treated you differently.
<ljharb>
sigh
<ljharb>
race is a social construct. it's not a theory.
<jfhbrook>
no alexgordon because "I don't see color" is bullshit
<ljharb>
it's a thing that absolutely exists.
<jfhbrook>
it is complete and utter horseshit
<ljharb>
it's bullshit, but it's not a theory or a delusiob.
<ljharb>
*delusion
<jfhbrook>
in order to address the problem you have to label it
<jfhbrook>
and work with the concepts of the theory, even if they are flawed
<jfhbrook>
especially if they are flawed
<jfhbrook>
but again, this isn't saying that white people are assholes by virtue of being white
<jfhbrook>
or even that all white people are assholes
<ljharb>
right
<thealphanerd>
It is saying that there are unjust prejudices in our society
<jfhbrook>
just that the environments in which most white people grew up were measurably *better* than for others
<thealphanerd>
and our society favors certain people
<jfhbrook>
white *men* I should say
<thealphanerd>
and we need to distrupt the status quo
<jfhbrook>
you can literally measure the differences in childhood
<thealphanerd>
also fwiw alexgordon I have proposed everything for the most part as "under represented"
<ljharb>
also this isn't an "america" thing, as much as you might want to believe it is, or as vocal as americans might be about it.
<jfhbrook>
and it's not because anybody is a bad parent
<ljharb>
(americans are loud too)
<jfhbrook>
not at all
<thealphanerd>
that can be female, people of color, people of different languages, people with dissabilities
<thealphanerd>
anyone who is not the status quo in an industry, which in tech happens to be cis het man babies
<alexgordon>
ljharb: it really is. I cannot think of a single stereotype about black british people
<jfhbrook>
but black british people aren't discriminated against (to the same extent, at least)
<alexgordon>
right because people have wholesale rejected the idea that they are different
<jfhbrook>
no, because said systems aren't in place
<thealphanerd>
can't say the same thing about middle easterners in the uk though :p
<jfhbrook>
the key word in "systemic racism" is "systemic"
<jfhbrook>
the system doesn't go away because you ignore it
<jfhbrook>
a lot of people aren't actively trying to create a more racist america, but participate in racist institutions without even being aware of it
<jfhbrook>
there's a whole term for the process of pointing out racism and sexism in society
<jfhbrook>
"consciousness raising"
<alexgordon>
thealphanerd: yes there is a fear of muslims at all levels of society
<thealphanerd>
so do you not agree that doing things to relieve that system fear is not a good thing?
<alexgordon>
I just think you guys are so stuck in your society that you need to experiece other ones
<jfhbrook>
What I'm talking about is generalizable to other societies
<jfhbrook>
and fwiw I *have* traveled abroad
<jfhbrook>
maybe not a lot but I *have* traveled
<jfhbrook>
it's not like I never left my hometown
<ljharb>
regardless we're talking ABOUT our society
<ljharb>
and like it or not virtually the entire non-china internet operates within it
<ljharb>
so it applies.
<alexgordon>
yes yes. look it's none of my business really, but for me watching it's like a car crash in slow motion
<ljharb>
talking about this stuff is why there's progress on it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<alexgordon>
when both sides of the political spectrum implicitly accept that people behave in certain ways depending on their skin colour, you're never going to get rid of that shit
<ljharb>
people do.
<ljharb>
it's a fact, that i understand you dispute, but that doesn't make it not true.
<ljharb>
pretending we can get rid of implicit unconscious human bias is what's never going to get us anywhere.
<ljharb>
we have to consciously and knowingly overcome it.
<alexgordon>
oh I don't dispute it happens in america
<ljharb>
lol you sound so elitist
<purr>
lolol
<jfhbrook>
racism happens in other countries too
<alexgordon>
but the way to get rid of it is to stop reinforcing it
<ljharb>
there's *no way* it doesn't happen in every country, including the UK
<jfhbrook>
it happens in your own god damned country
<jfhbrook>
like you talk to anyone from anywhere in europe and they have *some* kind of stereotype or belief about their neighbor(s)
<jfhbrook>
and how hard is it for europeans to allow for syrian refugees?
<jfhbrook>
and ignoring it does not make it go away
<alexgordon>
certainly 1st generation immigrants are different
<alexgordon>
but not their grandchildren who grew up and went to school with everybody else
<ljharb>
i think you're severely discounting how many generations prejudice survives through
<ljharb>
parents teach their kids that stuff.
<jfhbrook>
also alexgordon my school was like 1% non-white
<jfhbrook>
and lots of boys grow up around girls and still have bizarre beliefs
<ljharb>
^
<ljharb>
that's the clearest way to utterly disprove the statement that ignoring problems makes them go away, i think
<ljharb>
men have been around women forever, and yet.
<alexgordon>
like I said, I can't think of any particular stereotype about black british people. Whereas I know all these stereotypes about black americans, and I don't even live there!
<alexgordon>
the stink of racism is so strong it has crossed the atlantic
<ljharb>
"knowing stereotypes" isn't the sole indicator of racism
<thealphanerd>
I think we got completely sidebar'd
<thealphanerd>
while racism is a part of systemic opression
<thealphanerd>
it wasn't at all the original topic
<thealphanerd>
throw racism out the window
<thealphanerd>
certain groups are margenalized
<ljharb>
right
<thealphanerd>
certain groups are being under represented
<thealphanerd>
those are just facts and numbers
<thealphanerd>
women make up 50% of the country
<thealphanerd>
whites make up 63%
<thealphanerd>
in the country the event is taking place 90% of the population is white
<thealphanerd>
the ratio of men to women is about the same
<thealphanerd>
why are there no POC and no Women
<thealphanerd>
what can we do do fix this
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<pikajude>
you guys are so racist...towards white people...
<pikajude>
man, nowhere on the internet is safe
<thealphanerd>
lol
<purr>
idklol
<thealphanerd>
pikajude are you being geniune?
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<pikajude>
thealphanerd: in that i'm surprised anyone in #elliottcable says "you're racist against white people"
<thealphanerd>
phew
<pikajude>
like i said
<pikajude>
so i know of exactly 2 places on the net that are (in the most positive form of the phrase) SJW echo chambers, one by design, one by coincidence
<pikajude>
then #elliottcable, which is mostly positive
<pikajude>
and then everywhere else is a cesspool
<pikajude>
it's very frustrating
<thealphanerd>
what are the two?
<thealphanerd>
tumblr?
<thealphanerd>
twitter?
<thealphanerd>
should we change the channel to tweliottcable?
<pikajude>
wait, you're saying twitter is a SJW echo chamber?
<pikajude>
how many tweets have you read
<pikajude>
and no, the two echo chambers are ShitRedditSays, which was designed specifically to be a circlequeef
<pikajude>
and ##nix-darwin, where 90% of the discourse is me and copumpkin, both filthy SJWs
<alexgordon>
pikajude: I didn't say racist against white people. I said racist, as in believing in the idea of races
<pikajude>
look out, it's a flying goalpost!
<alexgordon>
?
<pikajude>
ok alexgordon
<alexgordon>
read what I actually said
<pikajude>
sorry, i misunderstood
<thealphanerd>
alexgordon did you just mansplain racism?
<pikajude>
acknowledging racism is the real racism
<alexgordon>
pikajude: the actual point of contention was that someone said "loud white guys" and I thought that was a pretty crass thing to say
<alexgordon>
but I don't think we're ever going to find agreement on this subject
<pikajude>
ok
<pikajude>
god forbid anyone be crass in #elliottcable
<alexgordon>
pikajude: well I do try my hardest...
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<gq>
<alexgordon> ljharb: it really is. I cannot think of a single stereotype about black british people
<gq>
the stereotype of british black people is that there aren't any
<gq>
lol
<purr>
idklol
* gq
pets purr
* purr
rrrrrr
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<purr>
<ellio> IT IS SO DELICIOUS I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH ALL OF THESE TINY WINDOWS
<gq>
pff
* pikajude
rrrrr
<purr>
<nuck> gq: So basically you pooped on ELLIOTTCABLE?
<ljharb>
"racist" isn't "believing in the idea of races"
<glowcoil>
-what
<purr>
<incomprehensibly> BUT ELEPHANT REMAINED INSIDE
<ljharb>
"racist" is "believing that people's ethnicity inherently limits their abilities"
<ljharb>
"believing in the idea of races" is called being a "sociologist"
<pikajude>
i think he knows
<pikajude>
he's just trolling
<ljharb>
probably so
<ljharb>
but you never know
<pikajude>
wonder if ec uses userstyles for IRCCloud
<pikajude>
i find them really helpful
<pikajude>
nice
<pikajude>
that one worked
<pikajude>
sick
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<glowcoil>
-butts
<purr>
glowcoil: is stuck up in the butts; hilight 'em if you want 'em.
<glowcoil>
-unbutts
<glowcoil>
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<ec>
I *know* I knew what I was doing, broadly speaking, but I just can't decode my own intention / design
<ec>
ERNEC: Not Enough Comments
<pikajude>
hey guess what
<pikajude>
well
<pikajude>
never mind
<pikajude>
i tried though
<pikajude>
hey ec. neat C code
<pikajude>
it loks great
<pikajude>
there's something beautiful about weirdly fucking formatted C code
<ec>
pikajude: Oh, I write realllllllllly opinionated C.
<ec>
It's sort of Paws-y: categorizing functions according to the type (class-of-data, more like) they operate on; and thus creating one half of an object system at runtime.
<ec>
Puuuuuurely for clean and observable code, even though there's an inherent performance hit to dereferencing those function-structs all the time, I guess? idk.
<ec>
pikajude: also check out my externalization system, I think it's P. Fucking cool
<ec>
oh wait
<pikajude>
love that guy
<ec>
that code is HELLA out of date
<ec>
didn't realize I'd clicked on ‘Old World Paws.c’ on github
<ec>
pikajude: but how cool is it that users of a C API don't have to type bullshit lik element__affix()
<ec>
I'm pretty proud of that whole thing
<pikajude>
neat
<ec>
pikajude: how's life
<pikajude>
it's great dude
<ec>
also: thx for calling my room a not-echo-chamber
<ec>
that's sort of my goal in life
<pikajude>
nix on darwin is garbage
<pikajude>
and it will never be anything else
<ec>
critically examine everything and argue with everyone, but more importantly, *get used to doing that while staying amenable*
<ec>
way back when, that meant “not shutting down bitter feminist assholes”, and listening long enough to argue
<ec>
and you know what? I learned a lot. I'm really, really proud of that decision; but moreso than selfish pride, I'm *really* happy to have confirmed that “hey, trying to not hate people who disagree with you” as a lifestyle actually Leads To Good Things
<ec>
and I want this channel to reflect that: I want to see people arguing, not parroting. As long as the arguments are positive, and the argument isn't derailing of another topic.
<ec>
I want this channel to be the one where ‘concern troll!’ isn't the first thing yelled, but neither is ‘I just want to talk about the code, I don't care about this social justice shit!’
<pikajude>
sure i'm just saying i think it's funny that, even in this mostly amiable pro-SJ channel, you can still get non-sequitur racist or sexist bullshit for no apparent reason
<pikajude>
that's why i said nowhere is safe
<ec>
well, the non-sequitur racist or sexist bullshit should definitely stop.
<ec>
I'd need to re-read it, but I wouldn't call anything alexgordon said racist? I'd *disagree strongly* with some of it, but it's not *offensive*, I just think he's missing important points.
<ec>
His belief of those things could arguably be hurtful (there's a discussion to be had here about contributing to systematic racism or misogyny, for instance) ... but while there's places where *being wrong in damaging ways* needs to be called out and corrected at all costs by those who believe otherwise, this isn't one of those places.
<ec>
I guess I'm drawing a line between “Something that is *actively hurtful* towards another person who may be present, or something that I, *Elliott,* believe *may* be,”
<ec>
i.e. don't-do-that's-or-you'll-get-banned's like using the R-word or the T-slur,
<ec>
and “Something that according to some of our beliefs Is Bad, but that isn't hurting another person present directly.”
<ec>
like, pikajude, you get how you or I could think it's Bad that alexgordon believes in reverse-racism; and you, or I, could even believe that that opinion of his is hurtful *to the world* in important ways ... but I want discussion of that to still be allowed in here, I want *dissent* with my own views to be allowed in here?
<pikajude>
ok
<pikajude>
just saying i can go to 98.5% of IRC channels and get plenty of horseshit about reverse racism
<ec>
(with the specific example of de-railing: if you Think Reverse Racism is a thing, *a discussion about other aspects of racism* is not the time to bring that up.)
<pikajude>
i'm not jonesing super hard to get more discussion of it around here as well
<pikajude>
but anyway, it was just an observation, i'm not trying to tell you how to run your channel
<ec>
but by their very nature those channels are *also* going to be echo-chambers. you're not going to get interesting, constructive debate and learning there, *either*.
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<pikajude>
lol
<purr>
LOL
<pikajude>
no it's encouraged as open debate
<pikajude>
just a demographic difference
<ec>
hmm, I dunno
<ec>
I wouldn't agree: I think most of the places parroting freezepeach are actively exclusive to particular people and viewpoints.
<ec>
I'd say that *truly open venues for discussion* are pretty fucking rare on the Internet right now. /=
<pikajude>
lol
<pikajude>
what
<ec>
to get honest discussion on a lot of these topics, you have to be *extremely*, extremely careful right now: there's a lot of very-unsafe spaces that claim to be open venues for discussion, so even *just claiming to be an open venue for discussion* is a dog-whistle (am I using that term accurately) for dangerous spaces.
<ec>
make sense?
<pikajude>
yeah, duh
<pikajude>
that's what i'm talking about
<ec>
maybe I missed your point :P
<pikajude>
i'm not saying 98.5% of channels ban SJ. i'm saying 98.5% are channels are mostly sealions
<ec>
whussa sealion
<ec>
okay I think I was assuming that you were saying something about this channel, and I think I missed your point. sshrug
<pikajude>
i was just observing that, if one might be tired of channels where "reverse racism" is commonly discussed, one might come here, then be surprised that despite the userbase "reverse racism" is also discussed here as well
<pikajude>
there are plenty of channels where people don't bother bringing up SJ topics
<pikajude>
and like, maybe 2 where people don't bother doing the opposite
* ec
nods
<ec>
I think you're saying the same thing that was the point I was trying to make. sshrug
<pikajude>
ok
<ec>
pikajude: anyway, feedback is, uh, explicitly encouraged?
<pikajude>
yeah probably
<pikajude>
this is a nice bikeshed you have ec
<ec>
I feel like I'm doing a dangerous thing here. I'm genuinely more interested in making a safe space (like, I have Real Human Friends in here, or worse, that I *want* in here, and who aren't compfortable with doing so yet), than I am in the freezepeach *in here*.
<ec>
I don't want my political views to hurt real-human-friends, so, ... this is all a bit of an experiment
<ec>
idkmahn
<pikajude>
how many of us are real human friends
<ec>
pikajude: huh?
<pikajude>
you know what. i think my least favorite thing about node is how nondeterministic the package manager is.
<pikajude>
ec: you said you're worried about hurting real human friends. does that include this channel
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<ec>
pikajude: sorry back in class now
<ec>
pikajude: yeah, that's what I mean, *in this channel*
<ec>
this isn't me admin'ing some group with no particular attachment to anybody; this is very particular to the particular set of humans that I either already have chilling in here, or the set of people I *want* in here, but are uncompfortable with IRC in general / this room's history in specific.
<ec>
pikajude: non-deterministic? it's deterministic if you `npm install` with no arguments.
<pikajude>
lol i can prove it's not
<purr>
olol
<ec>
that was actually a big decision in npm3, actually
<pikajude>
oh
<pikajude>
i'm using 2
<ec>
yeah npm3 is explicitly non-deterministic when you install individual packages; but *deterministic* when you install from a package.json
<ec>
i.e. `npm i --save a; npm i --save b` is non-deterministic, but then you can `rm -rf node_modules && npm i` and it's then deterministic.
<pikajude>
i see
<pikajude>
npm 2 is nondeterministic with no arguments at all
<ec>
that was an explicit design decision in the re-write from 2 to 3, there's a whole long writeup of it by … somebody? I forget?
<pikajude>
i see
<pikajude>
so why would you make your package manager nondeterministic?
<ec>
idk probably performance reasons, I don't remember specifically
<ec>
they Really Wanted Flat Dependencies, was a big part of it
<ec>
it boils down to when there's conflicting version requirements, like, proj->a->b@1 proj->b and proj->c->b@2
<ec>
proj->b and c->b refer to the same thing (n_m/b, @2.0), a->b gets its own n_m/a/b @1.0
<ec>
but that's all only true if it knows all of that at install-time.
<ec>
if you install *only* proj->a->b@1 proj->b, and don't know about c yet, then you get n_m/b @1.0, because that satisfies both requirements;
<pikajude>
<ec> idk probably performance reasons, I don't remember specifically
<pikajude>
that's fucking classic JS isn't it
<ec>
and then when you npm i c, you get n_m/b 1.0 (used by a and proj), and n_m/c/b @2.0 (used only by c); which notably means that in the former case proj is using 2.0 and in the latter case it's using 1.0
<pikajude>
reminds me of mongo benchmarks without ACID guarantees
<ec>
does that make sense/
<ec>
no, I do remember, I'm explaining now
<pikajude>
ok but i have a package.json file
<ec>
basically: it's literally impossible to satisfy future version requirements without *completely duped* requirements trees, which is impossible for obvious reasons
<pikajude>
where all the dependencies are known at once
<ec>
yes, and that's deterministic.
<ec>
the only case where it's non-deterministic is when it's *not* all known at once.
<pikajude>
yeah but it's not, at least with npm 2
<ec>
yah
<ec>
npm2 was broken :P
<pikajude>
which is stupid
<ec>
that's kinda the point lol
<purr>
olol
<ec>
wtf purr
<pikajude>
oh ok
<ec>
is even you doing
<pikajude>
well thanks for the input
<ec>
hahah yw
<ec>
sorry this wasn't so much for you, as much as anything else I was encoding it in text for my own sake
<ec>
to ensure I understood what was going on
<ec>
this stuff is important to me because I've got distant plans for a packaging system for Paws stuff
<ec>
and when your language is violently ascetic, it's important to Really Know What You're Doing with all the abstractions users are going to need on top of it >,>
<alexgordon>
ec: I just really hate racists
<alexgordon>
but after much thought I have come to the conclusion that it is an insurmountable cultural difference
<ec>
alexgordon: here's my model for dealing with things like what you're dealing with right now. (not an instruction, a suggestion, I guess?):
<ec>
If you disagree with a *sub-point* of a point somebody else is making, and the topic under discussion is *at all* emotionally-charged ... save a mental bookmark (or physical, if you're me, and have a shite memory), and then take their-point-of-view as a *philosophical given*, as an enabler of debate.
<ec>
treat everything else in the discussion from that point onwards as a philosophical debate with (absurd, even!) ‘givens’, and examine it exclusively from the other participants' point-of-view with regard to that sub-point.
<ec>
this works out well on several levels:
<ec>
1. dis-emotionally-charges it for *you*, if not for everybody else,
<ec>
2. makes sure you're not That Guy™ who's derailing,
<ec>
3. allows for exciting and interesting debate about things you'd probably never have otherwise thought of.
<ec>
you probably get this intuitively. it's not a complex idea. :P just helpful in this sort of setting: “Ugh. they think it's not racism if it's against whites. that's such bullshit.”
<ec>
okay, but what if we *define*, however absurd it may be to you, for the sake of the current conversation, ‘racism’ as exclusively ‘racism against black people,’ as a random example. boom, nobody's angry at you for derailing, and you still get to come back later and go “okay, now that we're done with that ... hold the fuck on, that's bullshit.”
<ec>
sorry if this seems condescending. /=
<ec>
I want to make you happier in the New #ELLIOTTCABLE, because I selfishly don't want to lose you? :x
<alexgordon>
ec: lol you're not going to lose me
<purr>
idklol
<alexgordon>
ec: it is difficult because we all speak the same language, but the words mean different things
<ec>
alexgordon: Programming! :P
<alexgordon>
ec: I guess it requires a level of relativism that I haven't yet ascended to :P
<purr>
<alexgordon> now i have two cones in my dock
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lololol
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<glowcoil>
-factoid butts
<purr>
glowcoil: Popularity: 2, last changed by: alexgordon, 2ſ 685mſ ago