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<siraben> Is anyone aware of projects to bootstrap something like GCC from a tiny seed?
<FUZxxl> siraben: I recall something like this
<FUZxxl> no idea where
<siraben> the problem is, it hasn't achieved its goal yet
<MrMobius> why would you do that?
<dzho> MrMobius: full stack reproducibility
<MrMobius> dzho, what does that mean?
<siraben> This. all this.
<dzho> there is also a larger and more diffuse point about depending on accreted layers of technology that may not be reproducible in a more sociological sense, in that we ingest and rely on work from the past that might become in some ways a lost art
<siraben> dzho: have you heard of Nix? https://www.tweag.io/blog/2020-06-18-software-heritage/
<dzho> it feels funny explaining this stuff in a forth channel of all places, but so it goes
<siraben> website: nixos.org/
<dzho> siraben: I have, yes
<dzho> also guix
<siraben> Great, do you use them?
<dzho> not yet
<dzho> siraben: you use nix?
<siraben> Yeah, Forthers should know best about bootstrapping!
<siraben> I use Nix, yes.
<siraben> It's excellent.
<dzho> siraben: I have for a long time used chroot environments for some of my infrastructure, often building the chroot environment on the same base as the host for it. I'm considering using Guix as the guest environment for the next iteration.
<dzho> s/using/trying/
<siraben> I've submitted several packages to nixpkgs as well, like an emulator for TI calculators, the Miranda compiler, etc.
<dzho> nice
<siraben> I've heard that Guix has a small bootstrap, which is nice.
<siraben> Unfortunately the same can't be said for Nix, which uses C++ as the implementation language.
<dzho> yeah they implement with scheme I think
<siraben> Yeah, Guile.
<siraben> (GNU implementation of Scheme)
<dzho> heh, just what I was going to type
<siraben> I tried using GuixSD on my MacBook Pro but it didn't have nonfree driver support for wifi, so that was the end of that.
<siraben> In X years when I switch to a PC which open firmware, might give it another shot.
<dzho> I'm looking at the Miranda Wikipedia page right now and can't remember if this is the 1st I've learned of it or if I've just forgotten having heard of it before.
<siraben> s/which/with
<dzho> with OF and on top of RISC-V amirite
<siraben> Haha, maybe.
<siraben> Miranda is a relic from the past, the mailing lists are very dead
<dzho> sad
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<dzho> these things rarely ever really die though, I mean you just said you packaged it for Nix, yeah?
<siraben> It wasn't very easy to get compiling too, but now it's in nixpkgs with the help of one of Nix's maintainers.
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<siraben> I think Guix uses Nix underneath right?
<siraben> Yes.
<dzho> I don't know, I think Guix is a reimplementation of the Nix approach?
<siraben> Ugh, I'm trying to get TCC to compile
<dzho> heh
<dzho> Fabric Bellard is amazing
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<dzho> Fabrice
<FUZxxl> dzho: oh yes
<FUZxxl> a one man army
<siraben> yeah, author of legendary IOCCC entries
<siraben> dzho: one of my favorite entries was one of last year's winners; https://www.ioccc.org/2019/lynn/hint.html
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<siraben> at the bottom of the page there's a link to his website which explains it and shows the de-obfuscated C runtime
<dzho> "WeDontServeYourType" lol
<siraben> I postulate that it would compile with tcc as well, or another super minimal C compiler
<siraben> Another crazy route to try is, Hex → Forth → C compiler
<siraben> dzho: here's a parser generator I wrote in Forth, https://github.com/siraben/meta-yacc/blob/master/meta.fs
<siraben> er, I guess it could be more appropriate to say that I wrote the original in C, got that to self-host then generate Forth code, which then could bootstrap itself
<siraben> Now that I'm looking into it, it's actually seems somewhat silly that information about bootstrapping a C compiler from bare bones isn't very common
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<dzho> lol sorry I got caught up in downloading blynn's git magic guide and playing https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/play/netwalk.html
<siraben> dzho: Haha. His blog is excellent by the way, has some of the best articles on Haskell.
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<siraben> Which reminds me, I believe this is the only modern reimplementation of a large subset (typeclasses, do notation, ADTs, polymorphism, I/O, etc.) of Haskell with a single C file runtime
<siraben> And outperforms Miranda too, https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/miranda.html
<siraben> It doesn't look too hard to port the C runtime to Forth
<FUZxxl> dzho: funny. I have actually spent a large share of the last few years optimising my 15 puzzle solvers and writing research papers about them
<siraben> FUZxxl: what kinds of papers?
<FUZxxl> siraben: right now I've one research paper in a peer reviewed conference as well as my bachelor's and master's theses
<FUZxxl> you can find links on my website: http://fuz.su/~fuz
<siraben> Ah, cool!
<FUZxxl> I actually solved the 24 puzzle, the 5x5 variant of the 15 puzzle, but the strategies are the same.
<siraben> Speaking of puzzle solving, reading Knuth's paper on Dancing Links is still on my backlog.
<FUZxxl> oh yes, that's a fun one
<FUZxxl> Knuth has written a whole book "selected papers on fun and games"
<FUZxxl> it contains an annotated version of the old ADVENT game with a graph showing how the cave links together
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<siraben> Interesting
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<siraben> I might have an easier time doing this bootstrapping from minimal (hundreds of) hex bytes in Linux.
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