aschmahmann changed the topic of #ipfs to: Heads Up: To talk, you need to register your nick! Announcements: go-ipfs 0.7.0 and js-ipfs 0.52.3 are out! Get them from dist.ipfs.io and npm respectively! | Also: #libp2p #ipfs-cluster #filecoin #ipfs-dev | IPFS: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs | Logs: https://view.matrix.org/room/!yhqiEdqNjyPbxtUjzm:matrix.org/ | Forums: https://discuss.ipfs.io | Code of Conduct: https://git.io/vVBS0
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<dietrich[m]>
Hey all! We’re running a two day hackathon with ETHGlobal this weekend to build and experiment with NFTs, games, audio/video, data markets, and defi. We’ll be giving away over $50k in prizes. Anyone who uses IPFS or Filecoin will be eligible to win FIL in the prize pool! Registration is at web3.ethglobal.co, hope to see you there 📷
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<vaultec81[m]>
Question: is there any kind of peer discovery system for ipfs similar to bittorrent trackers? I am looking to create a peer discovery system similar to bittorrent trackers to solve issues with peer discovery/DHT being unreliabile, and potentially solve NAT issues as well by providing a relay at each tracker.
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<MikhailRakhmanov>
Thanks a lot for the answer! I have one thing which bothers me, I know that libp2p will release hole punching soon enough, therefore I am wondering how will it work out, because if peers cannot discover each other, they would not be able to initiate hole punching.
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<Discordian[m]>
<MikhailRakhmanov "Thanks a lot for the answer! I h"> My draft linked there will allow you to use circuit-relay to traverse NAT (similar to TURN), it also explains how to setup a WebRTC-Star node to assist in local discovery for browser-browser communications 🙂
<Discordian[m]>
You're right though, discovery is definitely a challenge right now, but it is improving 🚀
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<vaultec81[m]>
<vaultec81[m] "Question: is there any kind of p"> Any thoughts on this?
<vaultec81[m]>
> <@vaultec:matrix.org> Question: is there any kind of peer discovery system for ipfs similar to bittorrent trackers? I am looking to create a peer discovery system similar to bittorrent trackers to solve issues with peer discovery/DHT being unreliabile, and potentially solve NAT issues as well by providing a relay at each tracker.
<vaultec81[m]>
* Any thoughts on this? Anyone?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Hey, I would like to explore the idea of marrying the bitcoin lightning network to the ipfs node for the purpose of creating on-demand streaming file server / content provider. I have some experience with lnd (go implementation of bitcoin lightning network), but not so much experience with ipfs, therefore need someone who has. If someone is willing to collaborate ping me here orin telegram (@andrewshvv)
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<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "Hey, I would like to explore the"> What's the plan for integrating lightning network? Shouldn't ipfs be able to hand streaming with proper infrastructure behind it?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I though of adding micro-payment layer with lighting to the ipfs to motivate content providers to server the files
<AndreySamokhvalo>
The idea is that if the payment is small enough (per chunk) the trust issue and risk become smaller.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Not sure about people being good about it, but who knows, maybe for some use cases it would be okay.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Not sure about people being cool about it, but who knows, maybe for some use cases it would be okay.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Not sure about people being cool about it (to pay for files), but who knows, maybe for some use cases it would be okay.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Not sure about people being cool about it (to pay for files), but who knows, maybe for some use cases it will be okay.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* I thought of adding micro-payment layer with lighting to the ipfs to motivate content providers to server the files
<AndreySamokhvalo>
<AndreySamokhvalo "The idea is that if the payment "> I mean the risk for server sending file and not receiving the money, and for client to pay and not receive the file.
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "The idea is that if the payment "> Interesting
<vaultec81[m]>
This seems similar to pay for usage models
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Yeah, I hate Netlix, and all subscription bullsh*t
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I want to pay for things I consume, and that is all :)
<vaultec81[m]>
I know the Althea network uses a similar model to pay for internet usage. Send only a small amount of money if proven trustworthy then continue the exchange, if not then stop.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
oh, didn't know about that, I will check it out
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<vaultec81[m]>
They don't use ipfs, but it's an interesting model to research and is similar to what you are describing in that regards
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I look at the OpenBazaar team and it gives the hope that the same model eventually could be applied to the iTunes, or some other streaming websites.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I would start with podcasts, because Bitcoin has lots of them, and community full of tech enthusiasts who willing to explore new stuff.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Anyway, here is my github profile https://github.com/andrewshvv just in case. I have some number of contribution to lnd, though some time have passed and I need to re-fresh my knowledge, but I am willing to take lightning part on myself, just need another person on ipfs side.
<vaultec81[m]>
Andrey Samokhvalov: Are you intending for this to work as a subscriber side thing? Or designed for a CDN to operate?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Anyway, here is my github profile https://github.com/andrewshvv just in case. I have some number of contributions to lnd, though some time have passed and I need to re-fresh my knowledge, but I am willing to take lightning part on myself, just need another person on ipfs side.
<vaultec81[m]>
Facing the subscriber (user) or a cdn
<vaultec81[m]>
* Facing the subscriber (user) or a cdn (infrastructure)
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Not sure what you mean, I believe the server side can be fully open for anyone to participate and earn money by serving files. And client side application might have some form of payment to creator by default, and option to download for free if person doesn't have money to pay.
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<AndreySamokhvalo>
I believe I am mixing several concept I have in mind right now
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* I believe I am mixing several concepts I have in mind right now
<vaultec81[m]>
Like is this meant to pay for infrastructure to store and provide the file, as in the creator of the content pays a CDN to host live updating content to the user. OR is it meant for a user (the one consuming the content) to pay the CDN through the lightning network to provide the data to them.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
The first thing I would like to explore - is it even possible to stream podcast with ipfs node and pay for it with lightning payments, so that the quality of the content consumption would be okay to go farther :)
<vaultec81[m]>
* Like is this meant to pay for infrastructure to store and provide the file, as in the creator of the content pays a CDN to host live updating content to the user. OR is it meant for a user (the one consuming the content) to pay the CDN (Or other node providing the data) through the lightning network to provide the data to them.
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "The first thing I would like to "> There are two parts of this
<AndreySamokhvalo>
<vaultec81[m] "Like is this meant to pay for in"> Okay, sec, I will think :)
<AndreySamokhvalo>
<vaultec81[m] "Like is this meant to pay for in"> Both, the client side pays, has light version of lightning network node and ipfs installed to download and pay for files, and server side (might reside on CDN or just home-node) which deliveres the data.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
> <@vaultec:matrix.org> Like is this meant to pay for infrastructure to store and provide the file, as in the creator of the content pays a CDN to host live updating content to the user. OR is it meant for a user (the one consuming the content) to pay the CDN (Or other node providing the data) through the lightning network to provide the data to them.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Both, the client side pays, has light version of lightning network node and ipfs installed to download and pay for files, and server side (might reside on CDN or just home-node) which deliveres the data.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Basically in this whole concept there are three entities: creator, client, and content provider. Creator uploads the content and some form of registry, hopefully decentrilised, not paying for content to be stored. The client uses the some form of extended wallet to server for files and pay for them, and the third is the community of providers, who server the files which brings the most value to them.
<vaultec81[m]>
<vaultec81[m] "There are two parts of this"> Well I mean options.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
So the client pays for the delivery of content (not optional), and pays to the creator (optional)
<vaultec81[m]>
Great! That's much simpler to think about the overall architecture of the design.
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<AndreySamokhvalo>
Yeah, and live consumption might be handled a bit later if the core team will be assembled
<AndreySamokhvalo>
For now it is a bit too much, and out of my area of expertise
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<vaultec81[m]>
Live consumption of data has been done before on ipfs, but it doesn't work very well and there really needs to be a good standard developed to make something people will actually use.
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<AndreySamokhvalo>
<vaultec81[m] "Live consumption of data has bee"> Thanks for clarification
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Something to keep in mind, if this pet project goes beyond the initial stage
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<vaultec81[m]>
disclaimer: I am going to be working on my own open source standard for live video data in the near future as it is needed for my project :)
<vaultec81[m]>
* disclaimer: I am going to be working on my own open source standard for live video data in the near future as it is needed for one of my projects :)
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<vaultec81[m]>
* disclaimer: I am going to be developing my own open source standard for live video data in the near future as it is needed for one of my projects :)
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "So the client pays for the deliv"> You'd likely need to have a security/authentication mechanism to prevent content from being accessed from non authorized users
<AndreySamokhvalo>
<vaultec81[m] "You'd likely need to have a secu"> What malicious scenarios you see which make you believe we will need this mechanism?
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "What malicious scenarios you see"> IPFS' bitswap doesn't have authentication built in my default. So, it's something that will need to be implemented in some fashion
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I mean if someone is willing to provide this file for free, that is okay.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Eventually they might want to change the strategy and earn some money from it, or expand the storage capacity.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Eventually they might want to change the strategy and earn some money from it, or expand the storage capacity and go full blown storage business! :)
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Eventually they might want to change the strategy and earn some money from it, or expand the storage capacity and go full blown provider business! :)
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Though I believe the cost might be close to the price of storing the file
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Though I believe the cost of storing it might be close to the reward of serving the file.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Though I believe the cost of storing it might be close to the reward of serving the file.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Though I believe the cost of storing it might be close to the reward of serving the file. More providers will be more the reward converge to the price of storing it.
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<vaultec81[m]>
Ah alright. But that would mean you can't charge for access
<vaultec81[m]>
As you need that system implemented to begin with
<vaultec81[m]>
* As you need that system implemented to begin with for charging for access for data
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<AndreySamokhvalo>
Each, the business model has to be though through :)
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Yeah, the business model has to be though through :)
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<vaultec81[m]>
Gotcha
<vaultec81[m]>
Just giving some insight into what I would be thinking about when it comes to planning
<vaultec81[m]>
* Just giving some insight into what I would be thinking about when it comes to planning/implementation strategy
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I believe we can take some portion from the creator, therefore be motivated to earn as much as we can to the content providers.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
If create a UI client which gives the people to consume therefore we a closer than everyone to the consumer and have power to determine the rules, until we put the price so high that another people will find an opportunity in it to create their own client and take less percentage.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* If we create a UI client which gives the people to consume therefore we a closer than everyone to the consumer and have power to determine the rules, until we put the price so high that another people will find an opportunity in it to create their own client and take less percentage.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* If we create a UI client which gives the people to consume content (therefore we a closer to customer than everyone) we will have the power to determine the rules, until we put the price so high that another developer will find an opportunity in it to create their own client and take less percentage.
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "If create a UI client which give"> Definitely. You'd want to make it as easy as possible for a user to make use of the system.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
In traditional system the provider has control on both, file distribution and data consumption.
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Therefore we can't just connect to Netflix and create a better UI client. But if data is distributed over IPFS and open for everyone this will create a proper drive for UI clients to compete and create a better product for end-user.
<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "Therefore we can't just connect "> Interesting
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Same as OpenBazaar
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Same as OpenBazaar as far as I can tell
<vaultec81[m]>
I am not familiar with OpenBazaar
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Oh, okay, basically it is Ebay, but data about merchants is stored on IPFS
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Oh, okay, basically it is Ebay, but data about merchants and their products is stored on IPFS
<AndreySamokhvalo>
Does the IPFS community has some person who might help me to find people willing to explore the idea I mentioned as well as some initial funding farther more?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Does the IPFS community has some person who might help me to find people willing to explore the idea I mentioned as well as some initial funding (if it plays out good)?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
* Does the IPFS community has some person who might help me to find people willing to explore the idea I mentioned as well as some initial funding (if it plays out good after prototype is built)?
<AndreySamokhvalo>
I haven't seen such things, but for some reason though that IPFS might have that, considering all the things happening around Filecoin.
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<vaultec81[m]>
<AndreySamokhvalo "Does the IPFS community has some"> You could try the forums, here is also a great place to reach out to others and exchange ideas. Places where developers congregate is the best.