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<ddc>
wens: which repo u r using for the codec? Lopez one?
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<wens>
ddc: yup
<ddc>
wens: thanx
<ddc>
wens: I'm just wondering if u can kindly base your axp209 driver to 3.16 I wa not able to build it.
<ddc>
wens: is there any plan to maiinline the axp209 driver
<wens>
you mean hwmon?
<ddc>
Yes?
<wens>
i've been focusing on sun8i, and there are a lot of axp patches in flight, i'm kind of waiting for some plan there
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<wens>
well actually i've been working on other projects lately
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<ddc>
wens: Yes I can see that. I just want to compare the temperature reading of axp against the ts driver
<wens>
why do you want to compare them? they are different chips
<ddc>
Yes I know but I'm getting some inconsistent result with the ts
<wens>
A10?
<ddc>
Yes
<wens>
it's a known issue
<wens>
a few others are working on it
<ddc>
I see. Thanx for the info
<ddc>
wens: nice talking to you .good luck and keep the good work. I really appreciate ur time and efforts
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<mmarker>
Anyone know the status of adding some cpufreq code into mainline? Looking at 3.4 and wondering if forward porting it to 3.16 is wise, or would something with voltage scaling make more sense?
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<Turl>
mmarker: I had forward-ported the uglyish code, but it only worked on sun4/5i, and then changes on cpufreq framework broke the build again and again
<Turl>
so I fixed it but it crashed and burned, and didn't bother much more
<Turl>
if you want to play with it, it's on my repo
<mmarker>
Only have a sun7i, but always up for a plaything
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<CaptHindsight>
from the hardware point of view cpu freq scaling that includes voltage scaling will offer the most power savings, but since the SOC's are black boxes you'll have to either be really conservative or perform lots of testing to find what is optimal
<mmarker>
Yup. I thought I saw some code in 3.4 for sun7i that did map voltage vs clock. Probably a good place as any to start.
<mmarker>
Urf. Well, I can try to gety A10 tv stick working. Guessing a unified sunxi driver is the smartest route
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<wens>
Turl: morning :p
<alexvf>
how can i wait for the next display vsync in a20?
<Turl>
wens: moin :)
<Turl>
wens: it seems maxime beat me to the punch, do you still want those acks?
<wens>
no need, as mripard already pushed them to his public tree :)
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<wens>
but thanks for remembering
<fiola>
wens: re an earlier comment of yours, mplayer does indeed generate only 16-bit audio --- if you play it into Jack audio and use BitMeter -- http://devel.tlrmx.org/audio/bitmeter/ -- to give you a picture of the active audio bits, you can see mplayer outputting only 16-bit from content that most console players play at 24-bit.
<wens>
fiola: hmm, maybe mplayer has some option to tweak its output?
<wens>
mripard: i'll do u-boot patches for hummingbird and sun6i gmac tomorrow
* mnemoc
was quite surprised to know that "merrii" (of the hummingbird things) is actually Wits Tech.
<libv>
heh, so they went and tried to join the cheap arm boards craze?
<mnemoc>
after allwinner chose cubietech for the A80 board instead of them I guess :p
<libv>
heh, the games companies play
<libv>
i did also not know that allwinner and cubietech are now that tightly in bed
<libv>
i guess that that too doesn't help linux-sunxi.org
<mnemoc>
and 1k+ dev boards with included support are probably no as profitable as devboards for hobbiests with free support by the communities
<libv>
and it could be that that is why we aren't hearing anything back from allwinner
<libv>
heh
<libv>
free support from the community
<libv>
let's see how long that will last
<mnemoc>
afaik actions asked radxa to make a dev board for them but they won't pay for the design o_O
<mnemoc>
chinese corportations are weird
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<libv>
i should still write the allwinner shame page.
<mnemoc>
yes
<mnemoc>
maybe even adding a link on a footer of the theme to increase it's pagerank
<mnemoc>
iirc oliv3r also sent a mail to eva complaining about the GPL violations
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<mnemoc>
it's a pity benn didn't follow tom's interest in helping the community
<wens>
libv: afaik merrii actually does expensive dev kits and signage kits
<wens>
they only did the cheap dev boards after a while
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<wens>
mnemoc: sounds like actions is being cheap, or trying to screw them over
<mnemoc>
wens: I totally fail to understand why a large semiconductor company can arrange a meeting with radxa to ask them to make a cheap devboard with their SoC, get the software support improved and get their name known and refuse to pay at least for the design and prototyping of the board...
<wens>
i read an article about Chinese/Taiwanese companies/managers not taking time schedules and credibility seriously
<wens>
and will often stall or stonewall to avoid making decisions or paying :(
<wens>
the bigger the company, the more likely they'll do it
<wens>
and for some hardware firms, software does not have any value of its own :(
<mnemoc>
:(
<wens>
some say it's the old mentality of the hardware/OEM market
<wens>
it's changing, just not fast enough
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<ikeeki>
@mnemoc: to say that about chinese corporations is extremely polite
<mnemoc>
:)
<ikeeki>
They greatly scary me
<fiola>
It's true of all corporations everywhere, they'll do whatever they can get away with, including here in the west. Western companies just have a better understanding of PR in a connected age, and know that you have to at least *pretend* that you're not evil.
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<nove>
if they(hardware makers) see us only as free support
<nove>
then lets give* them that
<nove>
but ofcourse by following our rules
<libv>
nove: what will that bring?
<libv>
i just see more idiots asking idiotic questions, not willing or able to contribute
<fiola>
It would be good to have a manufacturer-independent forum. Halfway house between wiki and IRC.
<libv>
we will just lower the barrier for more clueless android users
<libv>
coming to cry at us because they noticed they bought the wrong hw
<fiola>
Easily handled by making Android a subforum, and not visiting it if it doesn't interest a particular person.
<libv>
not that i can stop this from happening
<libv>
but i know that it will further drag focus away from our ml and irc
<libv>
and disperse what little resources there are or what limited information is gathered
<libv>
i will however sit here and state "i told you so" a lot.
<fiola>
"Focus" and "ml/irc" in the same sentence, wow. ^_^ The whole thing about IRC and M/L is that they are not focused, they put everything in one great big lump.
<libv>
fiola: and forums they are focussed?
<libv>
or are they _even_ _worse_?
<libv>
and i meant that focus as the focal point of attention, not full of focus.
<fiola>
Yes, they allow classification into subforums, and in each subforum the conversation is classified by topic. Quite a high degree of focus because of that. You can ignore any thread without a relevant title, and you can ignore entire subforums.
<Turl>
tbh, I'm not a big fan of forums, they're very maintenance heavy
<libv>
have you at any time read an android forum in the last few years?
<libv>
have you tried to extract information from it?
<libv>
forums are used by idiots to mash all the separate goodness of irc, email and wiki into one
<libv>
making the whole thing unusable as a result.
<fiola>
So the focus they provide is very high, compared to IRC or ML. For the ultimate focus there's the wiki, even better, but the wiki model doesn't really support dialogue well.
<nove>
libv: would "try" bring us control, only one place to go to speak to users
<libv>
nove: so you wish to no longer use irc or email?
<Turl>
fiola: ML already offers focus and dialogue
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<fiola>
Gotta love generalizations. "Forums are used by idiots" is about as clever as "Email is used by spammers".
<nove>
no, the forums would be for only "users",
<libv>
fiola: ok. let's try this
<libv>
fiola: what sunxi hardware do you have?
<fiola>
A10 LIME
<libv>
and ...
<libv>
or is that it?
<libv>
ok, so that is it
<fiola>
My first Allwinner board, other than Samsung and no-brand Chinese. All my other ARM boards are non-sunxi.
<libv>
fiola: do you have any android devices?
<libv>
such as mobile phones or tablets?
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<fiola>
Sure, a couple, but not interested in Android, I consider it a regression in too many ways. Any more questions? :P
<libv>
fiola: yes, exactly.
<libv>
and forums are for android users what irc, email and a wiki are for normal people
<fiola>
Rubbish.
<libv>
have you ever even tried to look something up about an android device?
<fiola>
"And Email is for spammers." --- right?
<fiola>
You really have a problem with generalizations.
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<libv>
have you ever had to trawl endlessly through a slatedroid forum thread?
<fiola>
Yes, and I've also had to dig the garden. How about sticking to the topic?
<libv>
where 98% of the content is just people whining aimlessly?
<libv>
this is the topic.
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<nove>
there are allready plenty of forums speaking of sunxi, but many don't even know that is us that are writing the software that they are using
<fiola>
No, the topic is not "Reasons why I don't like people who like Android." The topic is how to make sunxi information more accessible.
<libv>
i do not want the value and the barrier of irc and email and our wiki diminished because a small horde of clueless android users feels they need to exist there and there alone
<libv>
accessible -> wiki
<libv>
direct conversation -> irc
<libv>
more official stuff -> email
<libv>
why do we need a forum, why do we need to make it even easier for idiotic android users?
<libv>
nove: i really do not care if the stupid android masses are running into walls brainlessly somewhere else, they stink up the place enough as it is.
<libv>
let them stay where they are, let them be unaware of the real possibilities
<fiola>
I think it's pointless continuing a conversation when one side uses "Android users are stupid" as his premise for all existence.
<libv>
and let us not become the final refuge for the terminally stupid when their chinese board maker decides to bugger off with the cash
<libv>
fiola: i have been developing graphics drivers for linux for 11 years
<libv>
i have never seen such rampant and selfish stupidity as in the last 3 years
<libv>
yes, it is great that the linux kernel now ships on all that hardware
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<libv>
but it has thrown us back more than it has advanced us.
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<fiola>
Ding -- congratulations! You have now reached level 500 in the Android Users Are Stupid skill, category "Irrational Excuses".
<libv>
and now we get to handhold android users on top.
<fiola>
Ding! 501
<libv>
fiola: are you volunteering to answer android user questions on a sunxi forum?
<buZz>
hahaha
<buZz>
sufferrrrrrrrrrr
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* libv
digs through the wiki pages to see if a profile for fiola exists
<fiola>
libv: If I saw a question on some topic where I could contibute, sure, I like to be helpful. But in general, Android doesn't interest me, so like you, I'd avoid the Android subforum. The whole point of such classification is to keep unwanted topics out of your hair.
<libv>
which is the opposite of what i want
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<fiola>
You want it in your hair?
<libv>
i want the relevant topics to make it through
<libv>
and a forum will prevent that
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<libv>
it will just sink into the android swamp which is what the forum will become
<libv>
and it will help us in no way whatsoever
<libv>
we would just be yet another swamp out there
<libv>
and we would tell people that this sort of stupidity is even acceptable to us, stopping them from looking further and learning
<fiola>
You're not being rational. A specific forum narrows the exchanges, and makes it MORE likely that you'll see only what interests you, not less.
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<fiola>
Ding! 502
<libv>
...
<libv>
i see, you want pre-sorted categories
<libv>
you cannot deal with irc or email
<fiola>
You really need to stop your Android hatred. It's irrational. Yes, it's a dreadful system, but you can express that rationally.
<libv>
it's not irrational, especially not from the guy who has spent that much time on the wiki trying to make information presentable.
<libv>
i do not hate android
<nove>
we could do as we do here, "we dont do andriod", and close the topic
<libv>
i hate android users and the fact that only few ever evolve into doing something useful
<fiola>
nove: +1
* plaes
hates lack of "open" ecosystem
<fiola>
nove: +100
<nove>
and any topic that get good information, we could then say please put this in the wiki
<plaes>
*android open ecosystem
<libv>
nove: which doesn;t even work on irc or email
<fiola>
After all, if there is no Android interest here, just make that a rule of joining, "no Android".
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<libv>
fiola: this is not true either
<libv>
fiola: there are just not many android users here
<libv>
because few of them have so far crawled out of the swamp
<fiola>
Ding! 503
<nove>
libv, this new users, have affraid of irc or mailists, they will never join them
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<libv>
ooh, what a way to make people try to agree with you
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<libv>
no arguments whatsoever
<libv>
just childishness.
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<libv>
nove: this is a double edged sword, but it is to our advantage in the android dominated climate
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<libv>
nove: we are linux-sunxi.org not the-support-that-your-allwinner-based-device-maker-doesnt-want-to-provide.org
<libv>
oh, and fiola, you are missing a key aspect in my android hating
<fiola>
You think that longer sentences in which every reason you give is "Android users are stupid" somehow makes your sentences intellectually valid? No, it's every bit as incoherent as "Ding!", but ding is at least more honest and clear.
<libv>
i believe that i am the only person who has ever argued that we should work hard on making it easy for people to liberate their devices
<libv>
and that we should not just focus on development boards
<fiola>
Well I agree entirely with you about that.
<libv>
without my whining, mripard and mnemoc would not have worked on fex to devicetree translators
<libv>
i have written and restructured most of the wiki to make it much much easier for people to achieve anything
<fiola>
Well that's good. But seriously, railing about "stupid users" doesn't do your otherwise good work credit.
<libv>
fiola: i have spent too much time having to deal with those stupid users
<libv>
i have spent too much time digging through forum threads
<libv>
until 2 years ago, when this channel was formed, i was using android exclusively for my lima work
<nedko>
it is easy to see android users are parasites
<nove>
that is why the point in suggesting a forum, to be us "controling" the users, and by that way we only would reward the hardware makers that are doing the right thing
<libv>
and because of my lima work, i get to deal with users which are a few orders of magnitude more stupid than anyone i have had to deal with before
<libv>
and i did radeonhd
<libv>
where we went from 0-150 irc users in about a day
<fiola>
So ignore them. And don't visit forums. But arguing against forums on the basis of your dislike doesn't help others who do like them, and use them constructively. You mentioned "device liberation". The same is true of forum liberation. Getting off company-specific forums would be a good thing.
<libv>
it's not liberation, it's continuation
<libv>
which we do not need.
<libv>
and information that is important will only be that much harder to extract
<libv>
it's already impossible to get people to fill in the wiki
<libv>
there's barely a handful of people in here who regularly do so
<fiola>
Well it can't possibly be harder than extracting information out of email and IRC :P
<libv>
those who are used to dealing with open source projects seem to manage just fine
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<libv>
those who come from an android background or similar, they are the ones who tend to prefer forums, as they are not used to anything better
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<fiola>
You're confusing the needs of devs with the needs of users. Devs can use email perfectly because they follow the threads continuously and the state of topics is in their heads, long-term. Users can't benefit from that, so all they see is an amorphous unclassified mountain of text, with no "current state".
<ssvb_>
libv: Raspberry Pi uses forum as a primary method of communication and they don't do Android
<fiola>
It's just like the situation of mainline support for sunxi. Because the devs all follow the email thread, they know the current state, while users find it al;most impossible to know what's supported and what is not.
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<ssvb_>
libv: some people, who got a Raspberry Pi because of all the hype and now want to upgrade to a more powerful ARM hardware (and any sunxi device is clearly an upgrade) want to continue using a forum
<libv>
ssvb_: rpi is a pretty bad comparison
<libv>
they seem to prefer keeping people stupid
<fiola>
I'd be entirely happy with a no-Android forum. Trying to salvage something from what libv said in between all those "dings", the Android ethos is different to Linux generally (although the ethos in f-droid.org is the same), so it makes some sense to keep it separate.
<libv>
it happened when they announced their open source driver first, and they did it again when they completely blew off the videocore reverse engineers
<libv>
they do not really want people to actually tinker with the hardware and play with assembler
<ssvb_>
libv: these people upgrading from the Raspberry Pi end up in the http://cubieforums.com/ or in the Olimex forum or even worse, in the banana forum
<libv>
fiola: i have actually run forums
<libv>
sourceforge ones
<fiola>
Corps will be corps, and RPF is just another, the "Open PR" arm of Broadcom. Don't expect honesty and good community behaviour.
<libv>
they just collected fluff like bellybuttons
<libv>
but that was a decade ago
<libv>
way before the mass of android users
<libv>
today they just disrupt the useful order of things
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<libv>
the forums for the unichrome driver then, they were halfway between email and bugzilla
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<libv>
at best, they made sure the information never reached either
<fiola>
Some people find one more useful, others find another more useful. There is no single opinion which applies to all.
<ssvb_>
libv: the newcomers with the past Raspberry Pi experience get a very bad impression, based on the level of support and overall competence there, and then badmouth Allwinner hardware in the Raspberry Pi forums and other media resources
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<libv>
ssvb_: how is a forum here going to solve that?
<ssvb_>
libv: the problem is that the cubieboard, olimex, banana and the other forums exist
<libv>
ssvb_: are you going to make up for the shortfalls of cubiue, olimex and the development board scammers?
<fiola>
libv: To answer your question to ssvb and using your (good) terminology, it would address the problem by "liberation" of users from the manufacturers.
<libv>
fiola: but it is not
<libv>
sunxi just becomes yet another place to whine
<libv>
and if people from irc or email don't waste their time in the forums, it will be just as bad or worse
<libv>
or even worse
<libv>
as soon as there is a forum, our wiki will have pages which state "look at this forum thread"
<ssvb_>
well, this can happen even now
<fiola>
Where there's smoke there's usually fire. Whining usually means there's a reason for dissatisfaction.
<libv>
now those going away from rpi, they come back and state "that manufacturer is useless, although some things can be found on the sunxi wiki or ml"
<libv>
do you want them to state "that manufacturer is useless, and so is the sunxi forum"?
<ssvb_>
libv: unfortunately a lot of them have no idea that the sunxi wiki exists
<libv>
leave them in their stupidity.
<fiola>
No, inform them, that's more constructive.
<nove>
libv, seeing that way you are right
<libv>
google should inform them
<libv>
if they failed that barrier, leave them, they are not worth it until they learn at least that
<fiola>
Google is a perfect sampling of the stupidity that you so despise.
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<ssvb_>
libv: many of them believe that the manufacturer has (or ought to have) much better support than any "external" resource, such as sunxi wiki
<libv>
ssvb_: they will soon learn the truth, and if they are clueful enough, they will get here
<fiola>
libv: That's the standard Internet meme of the clueless --- perfect for cat pictures, and useless when you want a high S/N ratio and known-good content.
<libv>
leave the barrier, it protects us from the zombies
<nove>
for me #1 cubieboard.org, #2 wikipedia #3 linux-sunxi.org
<libv>
fiola: i am really really really big on device pages
<nove>
ah, right
<libv>
i am not exactly seeing many other folks working device pages in this community
<fiola>
Really, one would have to be clueless to go first to the source with the lowest S/N ratio possible, and which does not even understand the semantic content of your query since it only does pattern matching, albeit distorted by advertising. Perfect for cat pictures.
<libv>
but this is how we get users in
<libv>
those who looked for info elsewhere and clicked the third link
<rm>
forums tend to suck compared to mailing lists
<libv>
those who look a tiny bit further
<libv>
that's the people we want to attract
<libv>
we do not need more idiots
<libv>
we do not want to replicate a kindergarten on our own turf as well
<rm>
what maybe needs to be done is to migrate away from google groups to a proper vger.kernel.org mailing list
<libv>
there's enough of those
<libv>
rm: this again
<ssvb_>
libv: if the manufacturers redirected their users to the sunxi wiki, this would have solved at least a large part of the problem
<rm>
or is sunxi still not important "enough" for that
<fiola>
Distinguish devs from users, the same does not apply to both for reasons already discussed.
<libv>
rm: we have a linux-sunxi.org ml
<rm>
it's some sort of a forward to google groups, no?
<libv>
fiola: i had unichrome-devel and unichrome-users mls
<libv>
a decade ago
<libv>
when doing radeonhd, people were complaining about the volume of messages to split up the ml
<libv>
which i refused
<libv>
splitting only is a temporary solution, when traffic is high
<libv>
when traffic dies, it becomes a barrier and you get nothing but cross posting
<libv>
i have been there
<libv>
ssvb_: heh, the manufacturers are mainly stuffing their wikis with our wiki, sadly
<libv>
ssvb_: good luck on getting them to acknowledge anything, if they even aren't willing to support their own customers properly
<fiola>
Well in this particular case, the dev forum would be empty, so it's not an issue. :P But it would support the user community who likes to use forums, and (yes) even whine about their manufacturers. :P
<libv>
again, that's the sort of user community we should not be after
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<libv>
it will not help us in any way, it will only drag us down further
<fiola>
A community decides for itself what it's like, can't be second-guessed in advance.
<libv>
more clueless whiny questions which hide the real question or the real problem
<libv>
fiola: how long have you been part of this community?
<libv>
and more dispersed information, and even less feed into the wiki
<libv>
heck, and then there is the forum software
<fiola>
libv: If you have a point, make it. I think we've had enough of the interrogation process :-)
<libv>
those things get hacked all the time, categories get reorganized all the time
<libv>
i don't think i have a single link to a forum to any forum post that has ever survived more than year
<libv>
fiola: we have already established that you have never edited our wiki, we have established that you are not used to irc or email
<ssvb_>
nove: he is happy to make loud statements about allegedly poor video decoding support all over the place
<libv>
fiola: how long have you been part of this community, and to what extent have you been contributing to our community?
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<fiola>
libv: Well I like that idea of feeding specific stuff into the wiki, because that's the most detailed and focused form of organization. But the information which appears in forums is a step towards it, works like a bug tracker.
<libv>
fiola: which is why it kills everything else and becomes a swamp immediately, i have been over that a few times
<fiola>
Informal bug tracker.
<libv>
do we need a bug tracker?
* libv
is all for that
<libv>
let's get a bugzilla, and have it mail the ml
<rm>
there are github issues
<rm>
some are even not closed on sight with a comment "use the ML" :)
<libv>
which is a few steps above a forum
<nove>
ssvb_: i saw, also in the olimex.com/irc logs
<libv>
so it seems we have satisfied that requirement
<fiola>
Not a bad idea. Usually others can attach comments to issues, even to suggestions, so it acts like a more focused forum in a way.
<libv>
fiola: i know that a forum is a really really bad idea
<libv>
but by the time i get to say "i told you so" and "now who is going to undo the damage" you will be long gone.
<fiola>
libv: You've clearly had a bad experience with forums. But I've had many good experiences with them as a medium for technical discussion. I've never been on an Android one though. :P
<libv>
oh, july 5th
<libv>
fiola: thanks for being here a whole 10 days
<nove>
ssvb_: i don't know what to do about that, not only him but looks(i wouldn't want to go to that route) that there is interest in speaking bad
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<fiola>
libv: Yep, it matches the length of time I've had the LIME, after reading the Olimex documentation that points to linux-sunxi and the IRC channel. You think that's unreasonable of Olimex?
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<libv>
fiola: forums are swamps. they are less chaotic than direct conversation, but there is a time and place for direct conversation. they are high level structured, but that structure has to change in time. E-mail is structured, but not high level structured, topic structured, and people, if they are clued, they can join into any email discussion by finding the email id
<libv>
forums tend to gather information that should make it into a wiki, but if it is on the forum, it never does make it to the wiki, as it is deemed good enough
<libv>
information goes to die on forums, and only archaeologists manage to extract it
<libv>
forums mash all of the above together and bring nothing extra. it's the great generalizer and therefor it is not a positive force, ever.
<fiola>
It's every bit as permanent or transient as email. It depends entirely on the willingness of the provider to provide permanence.
<libv>
and that's before you get the android users in looking for brains
<libv>
and we will have hordes of them\
<fiola>
Ding! 504
<libv>
at least, if they can find it
<libv>
fiola: one more time, and you're a gonner.
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<fiola>
This conversation is almost as if the topic had been: "libv, will you please PERSONALLY provide a forum?". But it's not that, and others quite like forums, so why the extreme anti?
<fiola>
Just don't visit it, problem solved.
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<libv>
you haven't even tried to read anything i wrote.
<fiola>
I've read every line.
<libv>
but then, i understand, this is not a forum and it is therefor too bewildering
<ssvb_>
fiola: btw, I don't like forums
<ssvb_>
fiola: had pretty bad experience with them
<nove>
ssvb_: or is only one example of this "free support"
<libv>
anyway, device pages, that's where the money is. that's how we draw in users
<nove>
fiola: i also don't like forums
<fiola>
Well, suit yourselves. You'll end up having to endure endless questions here because email has no "current state", and users (not devs) will not find it satisfactory because they need "current state" info since they are not mentally tracking the M/L.
<rm>
wiki has
<fiola>
Wiki is excellent for state, just a bit threadbare.
<libv>
fiola: and who is to blame for that?
<fiola>
The community, we make our own resources.
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<ssvb_>
fiola: with one of the open source projects I participated in the past, one guy showed up and created a "community" forum that he volunteered to host and maintain, lured a bunch of the users and then lost interest after a while
<fiola>
Hehe
<libv>
fiola: oh, you yourself are not directly responsible
<fiola>
ssvb_: yeah, it happens :-(
<libv>
fiola: it's the others
<ssvb_>
fiola: in the end he offered a database dump, but nobody cared to to pick it up, so everything got lost
<rm>
anyways what I don't like about the current situation is that this https://linux-sunxi.org/Mailing_list gives every impression you're supposed to interact with the mailing list using the horrendous Google web interface
<rm>
the google group needs to go, seriously
<fiola>
libv: I'm not? Well I thought I was responsible like everyone else, but if you insist ...
<rm>
not to mention this lures people to create a google and google+ accounts
<libv>
fiola: if you feel like the current state is what is missing from the wiki, why are you not busy adding that information right now?
<rm>
not the best things a FOSS project should promote
<fiola>
rm: agreed
<libv>
rm: then rewrite the page to promote the other ml first
<rm>
in case there is, that's not the correct solution either
<libv>
you're joking, right?
<rm>
what I'm suggesting is migrating everyone from the google group (it's easy for the admin to obtain the full list of addresses)
<rm>
into a proper mailing list
<libv>
it's just not used often enough
<rm>
and then delete the google group
<fiola>
+1
<ssvb_>
rm: do you mean make it read-only?
<rm>
that would work too, if possible
<fiola>
ssvb_'s suggestion is better, readonly won't break links.
<rm>
yeah
<ssvb_>
fiola: well, actually I have no idea if google groups support this, but I'm not in favor of destroying information
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<fiola>
Aye, enough natural bit-rot without adding to it ourselves.
<libv>
dev@linux-sunxi.org
<libv>
which i don't think is a good enough name for a proper replacement
<libv>
as i do not believe that there is a need for a split between users@ and dev@, that's just shortterm useful, as i said before
<libv>
sunxi@linux-sunxi.org is where it should be at
<libv>
mnemoc, Turl: ^
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<libv>
and if you had been forced to spend too much time on android forums, like i have, you really dislike the term "dev"
<libv>
any kid who throws some binaries together and then runs a tool to create an image calls himself that
<libv>
rm: i cannot believe you never caught up on that
<libv>
rm: it happened like 6 months or so ago at least
<libv>
but it didn't catch on apparently
<libv>
where were you?
<rm>
I saw it mentioned in the google group
<rm>
but really
<rm>
it's not mentioned ON THE MAILING_LISTS PAGE
<rm>
how do you expect anyone to know about it?...
<libv>
it's a wiki!
<nedko>
wikis are only slightly better than forums...
<libv>
nedko: is that a reason not to have them and have forums instead?
<Turl>
libv: that's just an alias to the google group, we can add more if needed or whatever
<fiola>
The /topic could be weeded a bit and the ML address added.
<nedko>
libv: no, of course
<Turl>
dev@ is just catchy
<libv>
Turl: you're the guy with the android background, no ;p
<Turl>
yeah
<nedko>
libv: do you think android users will contribute tha wiki?
<nedko>
libv: do you think android users will contribute to a wiki?
<libv>
nedko: neither will most people here, by the looks of it
<libv>
s/will/do/
<libv>
but yes, they will contribute even less
<libv>
but as i said, it's a swamp
<fiola>
Generalizing makes no sense, the range of Android users is the whole cross-section of humanity, and it DOES include top engineers.
<libv>
why would you put a swamp in front of the hurdle, so you can make sure even less people try to jump over the hurdle?
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<nedko>
in my experience the people who make useful contributions to a wiki are experienced enough to know VCS and being able to write asciidoc or something under VCS
<libv>
oh great, now the next unrelated discussion starts
<nedko>
sorry, it was not my intention
<Turl>
nedko: there's many who can't vcs
<Turl>
but can fix links or add references or such
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<nove>
and that was the question to see if we should or not have a forum, and with the discussion we arrived to a _no_
<fiola>
That's probably an accurate conclusion.
<fiola>
Although the way was left open for a bug tracker.
<libv>
rds: that's the only reason you come here, right?
<rds>
Cedar re ?, it seems folks have lost interested on it.
<rds>
not much either
<rds>
do we know if cubie tech still in business ?
<libv>
we also get no more communication with allwinner
<rds>
no, I stop by when I have time.
<libv>
possibly because they are busy with a80 (which is no excuse to not answer some emails or to take care of pressing legal matters), or perhaps they feel that they do not have to deal with us anymore now that they joined linaro
<fiola>
rm: Oh excellent, cheers!
<rds>
but it is good to see great progress with the mainline
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<libv>
yes, but there is no progress on a23 in sunxi-3.4
<rds>
libv: in my view All Winner should be the one, answering quetions of this group
<libv>
or any other progress on 3.4 at all
<libv>
leaving non development board users mostly in the cold
<Turl>
libv: kms? :)
<rds>
yes, it is bad that 3.4 got to stand still.
<libv>
Turl: jaja
<libv>
first some jembashing :p
<rds>
looks like cubie tech does not have a road map
<rds>
with their boards
<Turl>
rds: they're working on A80 now, they posted pics
<libv>
they seem to be all in with a80
<rds>
cb2!=cb3!=a80 layouts
<Turl>
cb1=cb2 because pin compatible
<libv>
no sata is a bit of a showstopper, then there is powervr, i am not sure how popular this device will be
<Turl>
cb3 was a redesign to get the new features
<Turl>
libv: I'm sure it'll have a place among people who love virtualization
<rds>
how can anyone plan a product around these boards, if all conectivity goes out of the windows on the next generation ?
<Turl>
although no sata.. but well, there's usb3
<libv>
Turl: compared to other boards/chips?
<Turl>
rds: why would you plan a product around a dev board?
<rds>
USB3 is great!
<Turl>
libv: if it's cheap, and 4xA15+4xA7 and enough ram, it may stick there
<rds>
I am not, but feel the pain of folks designing base boards!
<Turl>
the exynos ones are A9 I think?
<Turl>
and "enterprise" stuff is expensive
<libv>
exynos4, yes
<rds>
many people designed a lot of systems based on the arduino
<libv>
later ones are a15 or a15/a7
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<Turl>
hardkernel is down so I cannot check
<Turl>
:p
* dreamer
gives buZz a wet-willy
<dreamer>
hi all
<Turl>
libv: how much does it cost for a quad A15 w/ 2GB on there?
* dreamer
wants to drive two vga monitors with his cubie. one on the vga out and one over hdmi with vga converter .. but neither is sd/hd :/
<dreamer>
any ideas? or do I really need an sd/hd screen for that output?
<libv>
no idea, but the price difference for the a80 is not going to make people forget that allwinner is a cheap chinese shop
<Turl>
rds: people who really need to design a product around something will like olimex hw more - just look at oliv3r :p
<buZz>
dreamer: rawr
<rds>
yes, I agree Olimex is the best there
<libv>
cheap development boards work because they are cheap, and because they have a community
<Turl>
libv: they seem to have forgotten so with A20 :p
<Turl>
libv: it's not like insignal does excellent software anyway
<rds>
is there anything the community could do go make AW more open with docs
<libv>
rds: nothing done or said here will change anything at this point.
<libv>
rds: so there's no point in wasting your breath
<Turl>
unless you have a giant stash of money around that you can use to buy the company, I doubt it
<Turl>
bbl
<libv>
allwinner looked to be on its way... but then they did a masterly move and brought cubietech into the action, making cubietech somewhat an accomplice
<rds>
lol, an ex-VB programmer... can't help much!
<libv>
i doubt that we will ever see the libnand or libisp gpl violations solved now
<rds>
libv: free enterprise and free markets will solve this problem, long term!
<libv>
rds: how long?
<libv>
rds: i have only been freeing graphics drivers for just over a decade.
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<rds>
libv: maybe a few years, since intel is moving really fast
<libv>
don't get me started on intel.
<libv>
the first two hires they made for graphics were so wrong that we would've been further than we are today back in 2009 already.
<libv>
or perhaps even earlier
<rds>
it is hard to hire good developers!, sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you get an avg programmer!
<rds>
why AW has released so many SOCs, without a good SW support A10, A13, A20, A23, A33, A80 ?
<libv>
because that's how the market works
<buZz>
without good SW support?
<buZz>
they have android image available
<buZz>
done
<rds>
libv: thanks for the link. Good reading. it seems Wayland is coming to stay!
<rds>
buZz: why release Linux sources, then ?
<Turl>
rds: legal
<libv>
rds: you did not read the last comment.
<libv>
as that one completes the picture
<libv>
and brings intels role into proper perspective
<libv>
not that it actually is relevant to market forces versus open source
<libv>
but market forces are not towards open source, they are towards lower cost, regardless of how that is reached
<libv>
which leads to poor technical choices and even widespread license violation
<rds>
libv: read now..
<rds>
market forces always win at the end
<rds>
it is hard to make good choices at the begin
<buZz>
market forces = need android, legal forces = need kernel source
<libv>
that's why we have so many Allwinner SoCs and so little real support.
<buZz>
linux forces = 'yes we would like'
<rds>
look at linux kernel, when it started ... and how it evolved
<libv>
pffff.
<rds>
agreed that android is the real driver
<buZz>
its the -only- driver
<buZz>
the kernelsource they make available is just out of legal obligation, they dont care about real linux use
<rds>
today, yes - but the market moves faster and IofT could change the game quickly
<buZz>
i dont see that happening
<rds>
look at where NOKIA and motorolla were 5 years ago.... and how quick they became irrelevant
<buZz>
IoT has no widespread adoption, and isnt happening soon ... i dont see my non-facebook/twitter/redderp/smartphone neighbour getting a IoT microwave so she can cook food and tweet at the same time
<rds>
well google glasses and watches could be everyone!
<buZz>
nor do i see the 'old' IoT having any impact on openness of the market, the 'smart tvs' or the settopboxes
<buZz>
i didnt follow the watches, is any of them coming with full source?
<rds>
lol!, only blobs - i am affraid
<buZz>
right, and google is closed
<buZz>
so nothing changed there
<buZz>
next evolution plz!
<rds>
had some fun! see you later!
<buZz>
:D
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<Turl>
buZz: chromeos is starting to drive stuff as well, although mostly on x86 world.
<buZz>
nice, but i think x86 was well documented on initial release
<buZz>
compared to the sunxi stuff
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<afaerber>
buZz, for the record, IoT has nothing to do with tweeting ;) humans tweet, not things
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<buZz>
afaerber: internet has told me differently and i appreciate the delayed pedantics \o/
<afaerber>
buZz, hah, okay. still you made it sound as if you tweeting with your microwave were IoT, and Internet access in microwaves and refrigerators exists much longer already
<buZz>
yeah sorry, i have that tendency
<buZz>
i believe in communicating in high contrasts as it will come across better, whereas it might not be my beliefs completely
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<JannF>
hello, I have problems connectinng/reading in FEL mode on Ubuntu 14.04LTS/Mint, is there anything special I need to do? ./fel version reports the device correctly
<JannF>
I have tried booting in FEL using SD Card and Power/Volume+ so far
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