phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
<p_l> no-defun-allowed: there used to be some heavy duty hacking toolkit using lisp
<vms14> "Thanks to LISP, I was able to write a large, complex application which might ordinarily require a whole team of programmers to complete. Also, LISP is very easy to customize so that as users become more sophisticated, applications written in LISP can grow along with those users."
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<fiddlerwoaroof> What automatic system documentation do people use? I've tried declt recently
<fiddlerwoaroof> But I'm not entirely satisfied with it
<splittist> I haven't used it, but Shinmera has staple.
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<vms14> seems to be very old
<vms14> was clisp in the past the most used implementation?
<Xach> vms14 no
<vms14> Xach: which one?
<Xach> not clisp
<vms14> xD
<no-defun-allowed> could have been CMUCL or Clozure CL
<aeth> vms14: CLISP used to be very popular. That stopped about 10 years ago, when it stopped getting stable updates.
<vms14> aeth: you mean clisp still being unstable today?
<aeth> vms14: I mean there hasn't been a "stable version" since 2010-07-07, not that the implementation is "unstable".
<no-defun-allowed> it's stable, but not updated
<aeth> vms14: Although, yes, technically any more recent version of CLISP is "unstable"
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<vms14> and do you use other free implementation than sbcl for production code?
<aeth> I use SBCL
<no-defun-allowed> well Clozure CL is good if you're running on a Raspberry Pi (read: potato) cause it's got a faster (compile-time) compiler and want threads too
<vms14> no-defun-allowed: would be a bad choice sbcl for a rpi?
<no-defun-allowed> i would say so if you want multithreading out of the box
<vms14> usually a rpi will be a server
<aeth> no-defun-allowed: Also, SBCL afaik has the highest RAM usage
<aeth> That's another important factor on a limited platform
<no-defun-allowed> even better for CCL, you only get 1GiB of that on a Pi
<vms14> aeth: but it's worth that RAM waste?
<vms14> I mean it's what makes sbcl be faster than most of implementations?
<vms14> a rpi3 should have enough RAM for a server in sbcl
<no-defun-allowed> SBCL (probably, not familiar with either compiler) knows more optimisation tricks, which makes the compiler slower but code faster
<vms14> would you choose another implementation?
<no-defun-allowed> sure, hunchentoot usually only consumes 100MiB but the pi3 also only has 1GiB of memory
<no-defun-allowed> and that's only hunchentoot, you have a program, some libraries, SQL server, probably would be under 500MiB though
<vms14> well I don't care in compiling time
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<vms14> yeah and sql should be in memory, sd is ultra slow
<vms14> so no lisp for a rpi server?
* vms14 cries
<no-defun-allowed> vms14: just use CCL on the pi
<vms14> well a raspberry pi is not meant to be a huge server, so I guess it could do something with little websites
* no-defun-allowed passes vms14 a tissue
<vms14> tnx
<no-defun-allowed> i tested my parallel chess program on a Pi since everything's slow and you can use htop to watch utilisation at that speed
<vms14> oh a chess program
<no-defun-allowed> turns out it didn't make enough "work" pieces so cores would run out of work early
<vms14> how it was to write a chess program?
<vms14> was harder than you thought?
<vms14> or easier?
<no-defun-allowed> it wasn't that hard, but i have to redo it since i didn't implement quite a bit of chess and is messy as hell
<vms14> seems to be a challenge
<vms14> a nice one
<no-defun-allowed> (i got a 3x speedup from using Zobrist hashing for computing moves btw)
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<Arcaelyx> Anyone ever make a lisp docker container?
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<vms14> Arcaelyx: nope, but sbcl can create a lisp image
<Arcaelyx> vms14: Lisp image?
<vms14> executable
<Arcaelyx> Ah.
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<Arcaelyx> It can run independently of Lisp right?
<Arcaelyx> I would be putting the lisp image inside of a container for execution.
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<vms14> I've tried a hello world in archlinux, a friend tried the executable in ubuntu and worked
<vms14> but it was only a hello world
<vms14> in windows creates a .exe
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<vms14> well in linux too xD
<vms14> my first .exe in linux
<vms14> if you try it, just need to chmod +x it
<vms14> idk what internally does, I'll look about
<vms14> see you
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<clothespin> hello?
<loke`> Hello
<clothespin> I haven't been circulating in the Lisp circles for a long time
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<clothespin> but I have a new project I want to announce'
<clothespin> besides here where is a good place to post?
<pjb> news:comp.lang.lisp
<clothespin> ok
<clothespin> where else?
<clothespin> reddit?
<pjb> I only look at news:comp.lang.lisp and irc://irc.freenode.org/#lisp
<pjb> Perhaps you may put a page on http://cliki.net
<clothespin> thanks for the suggestions
<aeth> clothespin: If you're using reddit, I would use /r/lisp instead of /r/common_lisp because while /r/lisp is "Lisp family" like ##lisp (and not like #lisp) it is probably 90% CL and is more active than /r/common_lisp.
<clothespin> ok, thanks
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<aeth> clothespin: Depending on the project, you may also want to announce on Hacker News. A lot of Lisp stuff winds up on there even though in general it's more like /r/programming. https://news.ycombinator.com/news
<clothespin> ok
<loke`> clothespin: what is this project?
<clothespin> It's a library for Vulkan, with a UI
<loke`> clothespin: Common Lisp?
<clothespin> yeah
<loke`> I'd say Reddit and HN. It's hard to get traction on HN, but why not?
<loke`> Also Mastodon of course, but that goes without saying.
<clothespin> what's mastodon?
<aeth> Twitter clone
<loke`> It's a bit more than that, but I guess that works as a first-order approximation
<loke`> It's the only “social” media I use.
<aeth> Personally, I very rarely post on reddit, but other than that I have wound down most of my social media usage. I lurk on reddit and on HN, at least for now. Both seem increasingly like a waste of time, though.
<loke`> aeth: All social media is a waste of time. However, Masotodon tends to not try to make it seem as though you're doing anything important.
<clothespin> i don't like social media either for a lot of reasons
<loke`> It's more honest that way :-)
<aeth> loke`: The quality of everything goes down considerably over time. I probably missed the good old days of Mastodon already.
<PuercoPop> Isn't IRC social media as well?
<aeth> PuercoPop: More like antisocial media
<loke`> aeth: Haha. You're right :-)
<loke`> Everything always gets worse.
<loke`> You know, there was a time (about 30 minutes or so) when even FB was good
<aeth> For pretty much my entire IRC life, IRC has been that old thing that people who don't want to use the shiny new thing use. Of course, I've been using IRC since 2002 or 2003 or so, so at this point almost all of those shiny new proprietary chat apps are not only old, they're dead.
<aeth> (And I can't wait for the new batch to go away. Discord, in particular, seems to be pushed very aggressively, but it's very limited in configuration. I don't think you can even have 24 hour timestamps, local logging, etc., on it.)
<clothespin> Common Lisp seems dead too
<aeth> clothespin: The difference is that there's no company that can shut down Common Lisp when its numbers drop low enough
<aeth> Or IRC
<clothespin> Common Lisp is now so obscure it doesn't even get mentioned on the "Least Popular Programming Languages" surveys
<PuercoPop> What I really dislike is how Slack has taken over the workplace and displaced email.
<defunkydrummer> clothespin: plz announce on /r/lisp . Comp.lang.lisp is full of spam and annoyng people like Gavino
<defunkydrummer> clothespin: Liso is still above Rust and Kotlin on the last TIOBE index so it can't be that obscure.
<loke`> defunkydrummer: “full of”. You mean “nothing but”
<defunkydrummer> yep
<aeth> defunkydrummer: TIOBE is essentially nonsense
<aeth> But it's not like popularity can be reliably measured, anyway.
<defunkydrummer> aeth: but is commonly used as an indicator of popularity
<defunkydrummer> not that I could care too much about CL being popular or not.
<aeth> And lie detectors are commonly used as an indicator of lying. And horoscopes are commonly used as an indicator of personality.
<defunkydrummer> aeth: You sound like a Capricorn.
<aeth> Sorry, I'm a Leo
<defunkydrummer> hahaha
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<PuercoPop> Btw which do check to for the 'sign bit' of a signed integer, (logbitp 31 i) vs (>= i #.(1- (expt 2 31)))
<PuercoPop> (Recently found nyef's CLXS code in a forgotten folder in disc)
<Bike> there's no actual sign bit
<Bike> is that what the scare quotes are for?
<aeth> PuercoPop: Wouldn't the sign-bit just be determined by MINUSP or not?
<aeth> The location isn't fixed since it can be an arbitrary length. Iirc, it's just a bunch of leading 1s infinitely, or something like that.
<Bike> yes, it's 2-adic.
<Bike> in particular, (>= i (1- (expt 2 31))) is neer going to be true if i is negative
<Bike> so uh... don't use that one.
<Bike> the other one will be true if i is negative and short enough
<aeth> PuercoPop: Oh, and note that PLUSP is not NOT MINUSP because ZEROP is neither.
<PuercoPop> aeth: Sorry for got about the context, you are in the process of 'building' it. You have an integer from sticking together a sequence of octets and you want to know what number they represented
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<aeth> Bike: You could use INTEGER-LENGTH instead of 31 to make sure that it's always "short enough"
<PuercoPop> I want to turn it into a number negative number
<Bike> well, you're treating it as a byte more than a number, then, so i'd use logbitp
<Bike> it's probably fine efficiency wise if that's what you're worried about
<aeth> PuercoPop: You can only reconstruct it if you know its size and if it's signed or unsigned. If it's a (signed-byte 32) then whatever works works.
<PuercoPop> aeth: you, we know the size, both when dealing with X11 requests or OSC (which is the context of the code)
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<PuercoPop> Bike: yeah seems the most appropriate
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<aeth> PuercoPop: So I'm guessing you have combined a bunch of bits to get a number from 0 to (1- (expt 2 32)) and you want to shift that so it's an (unsigned-byte 32). Iirc, the conversion for e.g. 2^32 - 1 is (let ((number (1- (expt 2 32)))) (- (mod number (expt 2 31)) (expt 2 31)))
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<aeth> PuercoPop: Iirc, there's a neat branchless trick you can use here. I think this is it. (multiple-value-bind (quotient remainder) (floor number (expt 2 31)) (- remainder (* quotient (expt 2 31))))
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<aeth> PuercoPop: This works because if it's (expt 2 31) or higher its quotient will be 1 instead of 0, which means it will become negative.
<Bike> isn't it the opposite direction? you have thirty two bits off the wire and now want a signed integer?
<aeth> Bike: This goes unsigned->signed. So you're combining the four bytes as if it was an (unsigned-byte 32) and then you're turning it into the equivalent signed representation for the same bits.
<aeth> I tested it on the boundary numbers, but I might have made a mistake.
<aeth> If it's 0 to (1- (expt 2 31)) this does nothing, if it's (expt 2 31) to (1- (expt 2 32)) it converts it properly, and it's not valid past that because it's only for ub32s
<aeth> i.e. (defun ub32-to-sb32 (number) (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) number)) (multiple-value-bind (quotient remainder) (floor number (expt 2 31)) (- remainder (* quotient (expt 2 31)))))
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<aeth> My function is correct because I just compared its behavior to this function in a loop and every ub32 had an = result. (defun cffi-abuse (number) (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) number)) (cffi:with-foreign-object (i :unsigned-int) (cffi-sys:%mem-set number i :unsigned-int) (cffi-sys:%mem-ref i :int)))
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<PuercoPop> Bike: iiuc you and aeth are talking about the same direction. But yeah this is the code in question https://github.com/zzkt/osc/blob/master/osc.lisp#L332
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<PuercoPop> And nyef's code (defun u32->s32 (value) (if (logbitp 31 value) (logior #x-80000000 value) value))
<PuercoPop> (I have to fix a missing unquote bug I introduced with my previous PR :v)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<dim> good morning beach!
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<phoe> morning
<no-defun-allowed> morning
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<dim> I've heard about the BBC initiative for exposing kids to programming, the Micro-Bit, a kind of very cheap arduino board with many popular extensions; and to program it in Lisp all I can find at the moment is http://www.ulisp.com/show?2672
<dim> do you guys know if there's an implementation of Common Lisp that would target this little board?
<aeth> probably not
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<aeth> If there is, no-defun-allowed probably would know
<no-defun-allowed> nope, too small
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<no-defun-allowed> also, it has one of those separated code and data models that make COMPILE pretty useless
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<dim> mm, so uLisp it is then
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<p_l> no-defun-allowed: unless you use code for optimized routines and data for bytecode+data
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<vaartis> hey
<vaartis> wanted to ask if there's a way to bundle static files when building the program with something like program-op?
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<vaartis> and is it a decent idea to bundle a dynamic library with an asdf system that someone might install from quicklisp, and if so, how do i do it
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<loke`> vaartis: Normally you wouldn't do that.
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<vaartis> I see.. I want to write bindings for a certain library that isn't in linux package managers, but takes less than a minute to build and doesn't have any dependencies, so i though about maybe just building it for most platforms and bundling like this python thing does http://www.pymunk.org/en/latest/index.html
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<loke`> vaartis: You can ship the source code as part of the package and then build it if needed.
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<loke`> THat's something I believe IOLIB should do with libfixposix, but the author don't agree
<scymtym> vaartis: there is https://github.com/zkat/squirl which is also based on chipmunk
<loke`> There may be issues that I haven't thought of.
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<vaartis> scymtym: i saw it, but 1. it's not on quicklisp 2. it's not maintained
<vaartis> loke`: not sure if that would work well on windows
<vaartis> that'd basically require visual studio
<loke`> vaartis: Windows is an oddball. Personally I don't really pay much attention to that one.
<loke`> I guess you could compile on Unix and ship a DLL for windows.
<vaartis> Hmm
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<vaartis> The problem is, asdf doesn't copy static fles to the destination directory when using e.g. program op
<loke`> vaartis: you can run arbitrary code from the asd file.
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<vaartis> that is true, i was just wondering if there's a better way
<loke`> add a (:PERFORM (LOAD-OP :AFTER (o c) (do-whatever)))
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<vaartis> does asdf do anything to static files at all?
<loke`> No
<loke`> I'm pretty sure
<p_l> you could extend it
<vaartis> So the sole purpose of them being there is to refer to them from the system?
<vaartis> p_l: i guess i'll have to
<vaartis> Actually
<vaartis> Aparently dll-op creates a single dll from all those currently loaded
<vaartis> I did not know about that
<p_l> that sounds like some extension
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<vaartis> it's in the asdf manyak
<vaartis> manual
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<vaartis> the dll-op doesn't seem to do anything though
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<jcowan> Question: when if ever does it make practical sense to mix &optional, &rest, and &key in a single lambda list, other than the special case of &allow-other-keys?
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<Bike> &optional and &key together are kind of verboten
<Bike> i think sbcl signals a style warning for it, or if did not did at some point
<Bike> does locally
<Bike> &rest and &key together is useful if you want to throw your arguments at some other function
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<Bike> (which is pretty close to what i assume you mean by the &allow-other-keys case)
<jcowan> Right. I didn't think of the pass-along case, only of the crack-keys-yourself case (like structure constructors)
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<jcowan> I'm glad to hear that &optional and &key together doesn't make sense. I am evaluating a pair of macros for Scheme, which has only &rest (spelled "."), one for optional arguments and the other for keyword arguments. I was checking that it made sense to separate them.\
<Bike> i mean the rules are consistent and everything, and the code will compile and run... it's just confusing
* jcowan nods.
<jcowan> I feel no great need to push for the standardization of functionality that serves only to confuse people. :-)
<Bike> sensible
<jcowan> I do think Scheme lambda lists are pretty: (a b c &rest x) is written (a b c . x)
<pfdietz> &rest and &key together is common, though
<_death> that forces the rest parameter to be the last one specified
<pfdietz> (as Bike talked about there, I see)
<jcowan> in my context that would mean using the macro (which accepts a rest-list and binds variables corresponding to the keywords) as well as the raw rest-list itself.
<jcowan> s/rest-list/& and keywords/1
<Bike> you can do (a b c . x) in macro lambda lists, though i don't think i've ever seen it
* jcowan nods
<pfdietz> I wonder if SBCL tries to check if a &rest arg's list is being mutated (the list itself, not the objects in the list)
<pfdietz> It's permitted (but not required) for a CL implementation to reuse the last argument to APPLY as part of the rest list, so destructive modification of that list is a no-no.
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<jcowan> pfdietz: No warning, no error: the mutation happens.
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<jcowan> Given (defun foo (a &rest b) (rplaca b 'q) (cons a b)), then (foo 1 2) => (1 q)
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<pfdietz> Not surprised. It would be a good thing to check for.
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<pfdietz> Better to have some sort of "rest args object" from which a list could be obtained, if needed. APPLY would take one of these (or a list) as a final argument.
<pfdietz> But that is not CL.
<Bike> sbcl (and other implementations) have things like that internally
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<Bike> i don't know if sbcl demotes user &rest into them when possible
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<pfdietz> jcowan: but does the list passed as the last arg to APPLY get mutated?
<pfdietz> I don't think it is in sbcl.
<pfdietz> WHich means that list is being copied. Gets expensive with very long lists. This shows up in a programming style where one adds new :key arguments to this list down a call chain.
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<pfdietz> In scheme, are repetitions of the same :key allowed?
<jcowan> Standard Scheme has no keys at all. The macro I'm looking at will not reject multiple uses but ignores all but the first.
<Bike> so same as lisp.
<Bike> (i mean, all arguments are evaluated though)
<pfdietz> Ok
<jcowan> The signature of the macro is (let-keywords ls ((var [keyword] default) ... [rest]) body ...) where ... is postfix for iteration. Note that the variable can have a different name from the keyword, though you probably won't want that much.
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<jcowan> "ls" is the rest-list
<Bike> oh, so it's just like a mini destructuring bind.
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<jcowan> yes
<jcowan> except the square brackets are metanotation, not actual code.
<Bike> well, sure.
<Bike> oh, you don't have a -p?
<jcowan> You can always use a unique object as the default.
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<jcowan> like (list 'missing) or (string-copy "missing")
<Bike> right.
<flip214> does the macro support a -given-p variable as well?
<Bike> that's what i just asked.
<flip214> ah, I guess that was Bike's question
<jcowan> As I was saying, you put a newly consed object into a non-exported global variable and set that as the default: no one can pass you that object, so an eql test shows whether the keyword is missing or not.
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<jcowan> (there is no :: hack in Scheme)
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<jcowan> I have used the same trick for alists as poor man's objects: if the first element in the alist is (<unique> . foo), code that cares can treat it as of type foo, and to code that doesn't it's just an alist.
<flip214> wait, you're talking scheme here??? </shocked>
<jcowan> I came here to learn from ze wise elders
<jcowan> (specifically about the practical use of lambda-list keywords)
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<flip214> If I hang around here for some more time, I might be one of the elders... probably still not considered wise, though.
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* jcowan chuckles
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<jcowan> By the time you think you're an elder, you're actually an old fart.
<saravia> sorry but, portacle licence is?
<flip214> thanks a lot!! that gives some new views to my situation...
<saravia> i dont find portacle licence :S
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<pfdietz> Talking about scheme to shed light on CL issues is borderline acceptable for #lisp :)
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<flip214> which issues?
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<dim> I'm trying to find this blog post of years ago with an implementation of FizzBuzz all as a single format string in CL, does it rings a bell to anyone here?
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<flip214> grrr, pfdietz has a faster internet than me!
<pfdietz> Hmm, maybe not that one.
<dim> I didn't find it here, no, I don't think so (re-checking)
<dim> well there's one that might be close to what I had in mind, let's call it good enough ;-)
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<vms14> I don't understand what it does (defun (setf html-mode) (mode)
<Xach> me neither
<vms14> html-mode is a function previously defined which just returns a global variable
<vms14> it's cl-who code
<vms14> just the first lines xD
<vms14> but I don't understand what is he doing
<Bike> (defun (setf html-mode) ...) defines a function called (setf html-mode)
<shka_> what or why?
<vms14> but why
<Bike> (setf (html-mode) ...) will expand into a call to that function
<shka_> vms14: abstraction layer, this way you can TRACE access to the html-mode, you can define logging, you can do all sorts of stuff
<vms14> hmm
<shka_> you can also raise condition if *html-mode* is of wrong type
<vms14> tnx
<shka_> i do this myself
<vms14> but why setf since setf is a lisp macro
<shka_> setf is kinda magical
<vms14> why not just other name
<vms14> or it neets to be setf
<shka_> well, first of, it is not setf
<vms14> needs*
<shka_> it is (setf mode)
<shka_> which means that you can write (setf (mode) :mode)
<Bike> it's (setf html-mode) so that the setf macro expands into it.
<shka_> html-mode, sorry
<Bike> that's how setf works. if it can't find an expander or anything, (setf (foo ...) bar) becomes (funcall #'(setf foo) bar ...)
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<vms14> where I can find this kind of info about setf or other lisp stuff?
<Bike> clhs setf
<shka_> hyperspec is online reference, but i think that you could use some decent book
<vms14> but they're not explaining everything
<shka_> like PCL
<Jachy> Maybe the answer vms14 is more simply, convention? You'll often see a get/set pair of (get-foo) and (setf (get-foo)) instead of (get-foo) and (set-foo).
<vms14> there is no webpage with extensive lisp info? other than just reference manuals
<shka_> just read PCL
<shka_> best book out there
<vms14> I have three lisp books to red
<vms14> read
<vms14> paip, onlisp and pcl
<Bike> and that's not enough?
<katco> vms14: i think common-lisp.net is the canonical landing-page for common-lisp, but i agree you can't beat a curated walkthrough like you get from a book, and practical common lisp is a great first read.
<vms14> Bike: more than what I can afford
<Bike> pcl is online free
<edgar-rft> vms14: PCL = Practical Common Lisp = http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
<vms14> Bike: it's not money, I usually steal those books
<shka_> paip is fine, but not strict cl guide, i don't like onlisp, PCL is free and awesome
<edgar-rft> zero cost
<vms14> xD
<Bike> what are you asking about then
<_death> vms14: On Lisp has good coverage of SETF
<vms14> shka_: why you don't like onlisp?
<vms14> isn't the book goal to teach macros?
<Jachy> All 3 have legit html/pdf versions online for free from the authors anyway. ;)
<shka_> i don't like Grahams writing style
<katco> vms14: as an author who spent a lot of time away from my family and young daughter to write a book, it is distressing to hear you steal books.
<shka_> i find it hard to understand
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<vms14> katco: sorry
<Bike> seriously, if you say "more than you can afford" but don't mean money what are you even talking about
<katco> please stop doing that
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<_death> all 3 books are available for free nowadays
<vms14> Bike: I never end a book, but nvm. I was asking for a website because I usually need to look for more info while reading a book
<Bike> pcl is on a website
<Bike> the clhs is also a website
<Bike> what more do you want
<shka_> well, i kinda like zeal…
<vms14> pcl is usually a result from google searchs
<vms14> but pcl cannot cover lisp entirely
<Bike> indeed, it doesn't, that's why there's also the clhs
<vms14> yeah I guess there is no need after all
<Bike> so you have the easy to understand introduction, and then the manual for the more complicated points
<Bike> for free
<Bike> online
<vms14> just read the books and have clhs as reference
<shka_> ah there is also Steele's book
<shka_> Common Lisp the language
<shka_> which is flawed but valuable
<vms14> why flawed
<shka_> source of explanation
<shka_> some stuff described in the book didn't make it into the standard
<shka_> other was altered
<shka_> majority is still relevant
<edgar-rft> vms14: you can read CLtL2 (Common Lisp the Language 2nd edition) if you want a something that covers all of Lisp, but it predates the official CL Standard by a few years, see https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
<vms14> thanks for the hints
<shka_> despite this, i really like CLtL2
<edgar-rft> me, too :-)
<shka_> it is nicely written
<shka_> Steele is exceptional writer
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<vms14> I forgot I've downloaded the cltl2 html version
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<vms14> I'll read it
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<shka_> gosh, why so reluctant towards PCL?
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<fe[nl]ix> phoe: can you send a pull request addressing the issues in https://github.com/sharplispers/split-sequence/issues/14 ?
<fe[nl]ix> I'd like to make the release soon
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<phoe> fe[nl]ix: yes, give me a day - tomorrow I am free to do that
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<katco> early days, but cl-ana looks so, so, cool
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<TheWild> hello
<asdf_asdf_asdf> @TheWild; hello.
<TheWild> Lisp atoms are: NIL (an empty list), string, number and symbol. Non-empty list is not an atom. Are there other types that are built to the interpreter?
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<phoe> yes
<phoe> everything that is not a cons is an atom
<TheWild> ah, yes. List is a bunch of nested conses. Cons is simply a pair of elements.
<phoe> every cons is a list
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<phoe> just not necessarily a proper one
<TheWild> I'm not sure whether vector is built-in or defined by some core library lisp code.
<phoe> it's built-in
<phoe> arrays are built-in in Lisp
<TheWild> what are other buitins?
<Bike> functions, standard objects, structure objects, hash tables, conditions, buncha stuff
<phoe> basically everything that isn't a cons ;)
<aeth> "number" oversimplifies things and might imply that you just have double float like some languages (which I won't name) do
<Bike> streams, packages, random states, pathnames, readtables, characters
<aeth> There's actually a very elaborate numeric tower in Common Lisp and most other decent Lisps
<TheWild> well, that's a lot of stuff. I forgot about functions, but I was suspecting Lisp bootstraps everything from conses or something else.
<phoe> kind of
<phoe> that's the way it was done in the 60s
<phoe> just conses and symbols
<shka_> is it though?
<Bike> yeah, in really old lisps you could call conses if they were lambda expressions, stuff like that
<phoe> but you need more stuff to bootstrap off if you want to actually be efficient; numbers and arrays are a must, and some sort of function objects to represent code.
<phoe> with that and a little bit of trickery, you can implement hash-tables, structures and classes, and bootstrap a lot of stuff off that.
<shka_> interesting
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<Bike> actually i vaguely remember reading some old lisp implementation implemented numbers as conses of digits
<Bike> which sounds horrible, but i guess that's what a bignum is if you really think about it and are intoxicated.
<phoe> Bike: if your fixnum is (INTEGER 0 9) then I have bad news for you
<davve> hey :) any good resource that covers lisps syntax?
<davve> I am having a hard time wrapping my head around macros
<phoe> davve: have you worked with Practical Common Lisp?
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<Bike> what are you having trouble understanding about macros?
<phoe> are you somewhat proficient with standard rules of evaluation?
<davve> no. i have just pieced together my emacs init.el :)
<phoe> minion: tell davve about pcl
<aeth> Bike: This is the only way a Lisp should implement integers imo. https://gitlab.com/snippets/1761668
<minion> davve: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<davve> phoe: sure, mathematically
<Bike> not those rules
<davve> the rpn too
<TheWild> darn, I have to think about Lisp as a higher-level language than just three steps away from assembly. (C was one step, C++ were two ;))
<phoe> davve: oh, ummm, of standard rules of evaluation *in Lisp*
<davve> if that is what it's called
<davve> I'll check out your link
<Xach> TheWild: it is not that many steps - see the "disassemble" function for example.
<phoe> reverse Polish notation is kind of theoretical
<phoe> TheWild: use TAGBODY and GO, there's your assembly toolkit once more
<Bike> clhs 3.1.2.1
<Bike> would be the rules
<TheWild> oh thanks
<Bike> in detail.
<phoe> (TAGBODY :LOOP 10 (PRINT "HELLO") 20 (GO 10))
<davve> phoe: looks great, thank you :)
<phoe> weeee
<davve> makes me wish i had a ereader
<phoe> now we writing BASIC in lisp
<davve> might be nice to have emacs handy though
<davve> i am so happy to have found emacs and now lisp (as an evil vi(m) user)
<davve> it is really blowing my mind
<katco> :)
<asdf_asdf_asdf> Character "'" (quotation mark) prevent evalution value. '*my-var* it's not the same with *my-var*.
<asdf_asdf_asdf> (quote *my-var*) === '*my-var*
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<asarch> Where could I find the :SPLIT-SEQUENCE component of SBCL?
<asarch> Nevermind. It seems to be fixed
<Younder> 1994 is a long time ago. The standard became stale. No-one cared. The world moved on.
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<asarch> (gtk-demo:main)
<asarch> \o/
<defunkydrummer> asarch: which library are you using for gtk?
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<defunkydrummer> phoe: TAGBODY and GO like a Real Programmer would do. Because Real Programmers are able to talk in actual caps.
<anamorphic> (tagbody 10 (print "hello") 20 (go 10)) love it
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<Younder> fine in macros. though it looks a bit revulting
<defunkydrummer> minion: memo to saravia: Portacle is a combination of Emacs with SBCL and SLIME, Emacs license you know, SBCL license is mostly Public Domain, SLIME license is Public Domain.
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell saravia when he/she/it next speaks.
* gjvc hopes fedora 30 will soon update sbcl to 1.5.x
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<defunkydrummer> Younder: What looks revolting?
<asarch> (ql:quickload 'cl-cffi-gtk)
<anamorphic> gjvc: I gave up on distro packages a long time ago
<asarch> How would you express your love to a girl if she was a Common Lisp programmer?
<Younder> defunkydrummer, oh, just the use of got and the like in code. Of cource it is just used to use higher level constructs.
<anamorphic> asarch: probably expose my slot values as accessors
<Younder> goto
<asarch> (be mine)
<gjvc> anamorphic, know what you mean. I have no idea how good fedora is at this
<defunkydrummer> Younder: GOTO makes total sense for some kind of code like state machines or some parsers. It simplifies the code.
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<asarch> That would be great anamorphic :-P
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: Hi
<anamorphic> Yeah you see goto a lot in Linux's code for simplifying error handling
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: "Brutally Practical!"
<defunkydrummer> open message: Has anybody used Portable AllegroServe? Any opinion on it ?
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<anamorphic> defunkydrummer: I did before hunchentoot came a long
<defunkydrummer> i've taken a look at the WuWei web framework, and it's built on Portable AllegroServe. It's a very nice framework and is actually used on a serious production system, so it has some credibility.
<anamorphic> (not as brutally practical as if err != nil { return err though)
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: Wow, what a practical programming language!! I want it!! This must be the language of the XXI century!!
<PuercoPop> defunkydrummer: have you seen how much would it take to port it to huchentoot?
<defunkydrummer> defunkydrummer: I think I'll try AllegroServer first. If I was to port it to something, I'd port it to Clack instead, and let Clack interface to Hunchentoot
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<defunkydrummer> btw Hi dear friend PuercoPop
<defunkydrummer> I'm just about to try AllegroServe
<anamorphic> I'm looking forward to dabbling with weblocks when I get time again
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: Yeah, yesterday i took a look at weblocks, the problem is the authors state that the documentation isn't useful anymore since the rewrite(reblocks branch)changes the API
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: contrast this with Radiance, which probably has the biggest tutorial and documentation of any CL web framework
<anamorphic> Yeah is there there any docs in the reblocks branch?
<anamorphic> I will check out Radiance
<defunkydrummer> reblocks has the same docs of always, some of them have been updated like the tutorial, but the tutorial is very succint
<defunkydrummer> i also took another look at Caveman2 (fukamachi), the way one defined handlers looks nice, but then... idocumentation is very scarce, and i'd get a bit scared if something doesn't work as expecte
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<anamorphic> Oh wuwie is mark tarvers's thing? The shen guy?
<defunkydrummer> Mark Travers... Is he the Shen creator? sure???
<anamorphic> I think it's the same dude
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* anamorphic have Book of Shen, but not the mind to comprehend it yet
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<moldybits> not the same guy
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<vaartis> hey uh
<vaartis> is there ANY way to debug foreign functions?
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<vaartis> i get division by zero error although i didn't even pass anything, it's just an init function
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<Younder> vaartis, loop out for default values
<Bike> try (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid :inexact :overflow) (fun))
<Bike> i don't know if there's a better solution by now
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<anamorphic> Sorry had to get more beer -- it's a different mark tarvers?
<Bike> you could also try connecting gdb or somthing i guess, but it might not go well
<anamorphic> have to use sb-int:with-float-traps-masked all the time with ffi + sbcl
<defunkydrummer> anamorphic: no idea... can't do the detective job today ... !
<PuercoPop> defunkydrummer: what specifically do you find interesting about wuwei?
<anamorphic> Oh yeah mark vs. mike thanks @moldybits
<aeth> anamorphic: no
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<aeth> with-float-traps-masked can be portable
<gjvc> this "Lots of bits of Lisp" guy on youtube is great
<Xach> yes
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<aeth> minion: memo for anamorphic: use the portable with-float-traps-masked in the library float-features https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell anamorphic when he/she/it next speaks.
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<defunkydrummer> PuercoPop: tiny simple lib with continuations and ajax. Examples' codebases look fine. Fits my purpose.
<vaartis> Bike: nope, nothing seems to change
<vaartis> i'll try attaching gdb
<Bike> no idea then, sorry.
<defunkydrummer> PuercoPop: yeah "ajax" sounds like so 2005, but good enough for some tasks, instead of going the "SPA" route
<vaartis> gdb got it
<vaartis> actually
<vaartis> nice
<aeth> SPA is almost always the wrong choice
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<aeth> it should be the exception, not the default
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<vaartis> now i need to somehow get the debug version of the library built
<PuercoPop> defunkydrummer: I hate SPA's with passion, but the problem is 'continuations' and CL don't go well together afaik
<vaartis> anyway, thanks everyone
<vaartis> and goodnight
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<PuercoPop> plus wuwei seems to make some questionably choices
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<PuercoPop> like (ignore-errors (eval (read-from-string ...)))
<defunkydrummer> PuercoPop: tell me more, tell me more, did it give you a fight? [Grease music]
<defunkydrummer> Oh oh
<PuercoPop> And patching json-encode to recognize alists as maps by walking all the alist
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<PuercoPop> *questionable
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<aeth> PuercoPop: Oh, wow, I didn't know that all I needed to do was use IGNORE-ERRORS and then I wouldn't make any mistakes anymore.
<pjb> You still make them!
<pjb> Only now, you're ignoring them. Which is very bad.
<pjb> You can't debug your code anymore. You won't know why it's wrong.
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<PuercoPop> it is turned on precisely form *developer-mode* ^_^. But everyone has their own debugging flow
<defunkydrummer> thanks for this warning PuercoPop ...
<PuercoPop> printf ftw!
<defunkydrummer> i'm having a pain in the ass trying to make wuwei work with the modern Portable AllegroServe which works over ZACL (AllegroCL compatibility layer)
<vms14> format so we see nicer output
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<defunkydrummer> because wuwei also has it's own AllegroCL compatibility layer... they clash and rock the casbah
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<defunkydrummer> well, since i don't have (yet) the money for my own AllegroCL Ultra Deluxe x64 Edition with Flux Capacitor, i think i'll pass...
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<vaartis> actually, im back
<vaartis> and i found the culprit
<vaartis> body->m_inv = mass == 0.0f ? INFINITY : 1.0f/mass;
<vaartis> so somehow mass isn't zero but also dividing by it makes a zero division error
<vaartis> AND that only happens when i load the library installed by the package manager
<vaartis> if i build it myself it's fine
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<vaartis> although i DO build it myself, the package manager just does something to it after that
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<vaartis> oh well
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<pjb> minion: memo for vaartis: perhaps a mixup between float and double? https://pastebin.com/4Dd4BZ6u
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell vaartis when he/she/it next speaks.
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<liambrown[m]1> Is QuickLisp not intended for system-wide install? I just tried installing it system-wide, and it worked, but when I start SLIME as a non-root user I get an error about trying to access "system-index.txt" within the newly created installation tree.
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<no-defun-allowed> i don't think so, quicklisp touches a lot of files and will create more files when downloading systems
<liambrown[m]1> So it's a per-user thing? Odd, but not a big deal.